Unknown witness

[Observer]

As for books, why did Halt in one interview say that Larry Warren was telling lies and he was a 'wannabe'?

Obs

[redsocks]

Redsock You stated there would have been drink need I say more. That he went on a fun jant
your also implied the SP were partying in the forrest on the night of the incident. I will not stand by and have someone who has no Idea what there talking about and Hiding behind there Computer make those kind of statements about the Security Police on duty or a officer in the USAF. You got nothing have the people involved step forword! In your PM you stated there is going to be a book who is the arthur who are the sources wheres the proof. Months ago you tried to get me to come over behind the forum back and yes I still have the PM and I turned you down. And ever since you have been on a witch hunt. There is no smoke screen and numerous people have PM and E-mailed me to ignore you that your post are not worth my time. There right your not worth it!!!

All you do John is get all defensive when this is put forward to you,I am simply asking you a question.
As for me saying that SP's were drinking on the night of the incident this is crap and has been pointed out to you many times READ THE POST ON THE BENTWATERS NAMES SITE here it is http://www.geocities.com/rafbentwaters/anew1.htm listing 49 BILL LUEBKE,it doesent mention drinking in the woods on the night of the incident the guy just says it went on ,heck everyone else here can see that why not you.Why do you not think you were the victim on an elaborate hoax thats all i'm asking.As for a book there has never been one published on the hoax theory and yeah the whole deal would make a bloody good book.

Redsocks

[Observer]

Come on guys, we need to all stick together and respect each other's opinions.

Obs

[John Burroughs]

Observer
You cannot get along with someone who makes statements about peoples intergerity. Read redsocks post on Sunday Nov 16th @11:45am to Silvertop about SP drinking and it was not about the Bill Luekke site. Also about Halt on Sunday Nov 16th@9:00pm on the Was at east gate end of Woody. I will not stand By and have someone make statements about on Duty cops or Officer that were out doing there job. As far as warren goes Halt said that because there is a Tape with warren saying he was not out there or was dreaming it. Warren and him were in a conversation and this is waht came out. I have someone looking into Anti gravity and will let you know. As far as therory go there great and everybody has one but I will not put up with Cheap shots at the 81st or Officers doing there job. No smoke screen just a person who has had enough of him and trust me when I say this I will not have anymore to do with him period. If I have to I will only be PM the people I need to from now on ! The people were right who PM me and I was wrong I thought I could put up with his crap I should have just deleated him from my inbox.

[Observer]

John

Its getting too near for Xmas for us to fall out, good will to all men as they say.

Read the title on this page, 'A friendly community searching for the truth behind Britain's most celebrated UFO case'.

Lets all abide by that.

I do feel though that admin needs to summarize this case for all of us and perhaps give fresh perspectives and may be even directives for us to follow. We are a bit rudderless at the moment.

Obs

[Observer]

Redsocks

The story that Bill Luebke tells of their night in the forest and the craft they saw and entered could be just hype. No body else has ever mentioned going in the craft [and don't forget that not everyone saw a craft] and the nearest that was, is when Jim Penniston said he touched it.

Obs

[puddlepirate]

It is worthwhile remembering that the average age of a serviceman be he (or she) US, Brit or any other nationality is around 19/20 years of age - as were the airmen who went into the forest to investigate the RFI. Not much older than kids. Kids party. It is the nature of the beast but service personnel are also well trained and take pride in doing their job to the best of their ability and not letting their mates down. Partying and work do not mix in the services. To suggest that service personnel do not party is ill informed but it is very, very wrong to suggest they party whilst on duty. That is to discredit not only them or their service but the country they serve. Heck, if the Royal Navy were taken to task for partying just about every man jack who had ever wore dark blue would have been dismissed the service!! When on duty jack serves Queen and country (plus his ship) to the best of his ability but when off duty he is the biggest pisshead on the planet and makes every effort to uphold he finest traditions of the service. Drink and the Royal Navy go hand in hand and heavy drinking is as much part of naval tradition as the immortal memory of Adm Lord Nelson!! I do not believe for one moment that duty USAF personnel were fooling around in the forest when they should have been paying attention to business. I've seen Brits - Army and RN in particular - absolutely shitfaced in many places around the globe, especially at mess dinners and in clubs frequented by service personnel but I cannot recall seeing US service personnel in the same state, ever. And certainly not off base in a public place. Om fact, I seem to recall that US personnel are strictly barred from consuming alcohol whilst on duty.

So guys, please let's move away from unnecessary and unfounded insults on the integrity of our cousins.

[redsocks]

I cannot believe some of you on here are suggesting that I assume duty airmen drink,read the dam post done by someone else he was serving and said SP's offduty partyied in the woods..... I have worked alongside SP's in restricted areas within the USAF,I know how it works so dont bloody patronise me.The deal here is John anything against what you believe really gets to you and Larry Warren and you become abusive,all you want to hear about is people praising and biging you up.JOHN I DONT BELIEVE YOU SAW A UFO and i'm here to prove that,i'm not going post you, PM you, but as this is a site to try and figure things out thats what i'm here to do.Mike Bird was right,yer I know him and I know you know him, and he knows what happened that night and it aint a UFO!!

Redsocks

[Observer]

I can verify some of puddles remarks re USAF airmen drinking.

When i lived in the area and regularly visited the area after i moved to London, i would go to at least one local pub each visit, Cherry Tree, Wilford Bridge, Red Lion Martlesham etc. There were airmen in these pubs but it was damn rare to see one drunk. A few got a bit merry, but that was it.
Very few visited pubs on week day evenings, it was usually Friday and Saturday nights.
The Ipswich bars [remember the 'Running Buck' guys] had their fare share of Americans on a Sat night and there were odd fights now and again most i might add started by the locals, not the Americans. On the whole the Americans were better behaved and more polite than some of the British.

Obs

[Wolf]

Ah, the Buck and Cindys. RIP

Wolf

[AdrianF]

It sounds like you are quoting me there which is not true,it was said by an ex USAF servicman on a "find buddies" site.
I will say though that the SP's were partying in the woods when this was supposed to have happened and do you really believe stuff like this doesent go on in the military?.enough said as I dont want to detract from the main topic here.

Redsocks

N-N-N-Nineteen, yeah at nineteen, being posted to a foreign country of course you'd want to go out and party. The night parties in the forest have been well documented already. "Evidence" that the on duty SPs were partying? I'd love to see that evidence. Mud slinging doesn't really help the cause.

What about the evidence of the Apollo being used as part of a hoax, what do we have? Redsocks not having a dig at you but, are you in contact with a member of the ARRS who was involved saying " we did that and this is what we did "? They could have pulled a great hoax with some of the lights and counter measures that they seemed to have at their disposal, but there is always another viewpoint or testimony that puts this into doubt. Did the 67th even ever airlift the boilerplate at Woodbridge, did they use it for that purpose, did they use it to practice rescues from or was it just a mascot? It looks like the Jolly Green Giants were capable of lifting them just about, a couple of links:

http://www.thespacereview.com/article/1101/1
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/hh-53.htm


Maybe some of the more aircraft savvy members of the forum could answer this question?
I do think it's highly likely that a chopper was flying at some point around this time with something hanging underneath and that could have been seen and subsequently reported as a UFO ( the pictures in the link above could be construed as saucer recovery by some ). The grapevine grows and there you have another part of the myth. I'm still not convinced it played a role in the main event though.

Adrian

[puddlepirate]

There is one group I would really like to hear from because they would be the only group that really knew what went on re the RFI. They would know what happened and who was told. That group is the communicators. The radio operators / message handlers. Comms staff always know what is going on... even before the PM or the President, simply because they handle the signal message traffic that the PM and President read so they get to see stuff before the PM or President does - and comms staff hold the very highest security clearances simply because they have to in order to do their job.

There must have been a comcen at either Woodbridge or Bentwaters because a comcen was necessary to handle signal messages for the bases, both operational and admin. Signal message traffic relating to the RFI would have been handled by the comcen staff. They would know what the signals contained and to whom the messages were sent - both action and info addressees.

We need someone from the comcen to join the forum

[Observer]

Adrian

Yes, the HH-53 could lift the Apollo training capsule. Graham Haynes will verify this. There are also 2 independent witnesses who saw the capsule hit the landing lights whilst under slung a HH-53 but this was before the Christmas holidays and not necessarily associated with the RFI, but there again it could have been. Sorry about the negative stance.
I'm not saying that the capsule was part of this mystery but it could have been. There i go again.
Its interesting to note that according to Graham Haynes the capsule went missing for some time immediately after the incident. There's probably a simple explanation for that, but as yet we don't know why.
I think St checked out the capsule some time back and the 3 legs/feet it stands on didn't seem to measure the same distances as the 3 indentations in the forest floor.

Obs

[Wolf]

http://www.defenseimagery.mil/imagery.h ... 6405a234b0

Wolf

[pupil88]

Hi PP,

You wrote,"There is one group I would really like to hear from because they would be the only group that really knew what went on re the RFI. They would know what happened and who was told. That group is the communicators. The radio operators / message handlers. Comms staff always know what is going on"

Read the Hasting's report. On the night in question, the primary (CSC)passed control to a Temp for several hours. There was also an alternate (CSC) in another building.

There is one constant during UFO events. The animals were screaming.

[John Burroughs]

Redsocks
Well as usual I can't getaway from me having to respond to one of your post. This is for the record so you have me if you think you have the goods. I have no Idea who you are talking about IE I dont know who you are talking about in the AARS. So if you have the goods bring them out. Please show that I know the guy your talking about. Please have him come on and tell his story and let the people decide once and for all if this is what happend. I will not agree that it was possible because I saw no evidance on both nights that I was out there that that was what happened. And just like Ian Ridpath theory of stars and the light house I know what I saw and experienced does not fit the bill. Is this why you wanted to get me to come over to ambush me with your therory? As far as the tower guy you guys are right we need to find them and Halt has said he wants to find them also so that is very important. On the 3rd night I was in radio contact with the tower as i got close to what ever it was. Thank you all for your kind words about the American service men. So Redsocks please bring forword what you have I'm waiting to have you expose me for the fraud you think I am. And you know my name John Burroughs for whom to I enjoy the pleasure of having this conversation with your real name please if you dare.

[Observer]

St

According to Graham Haynes, the Apollo capsule went missing immediately after the incident for a short period of time, only days or weeks at the most then it re appeared. Not missing for ever!

Obs

[AdrianF]

Thanks Wolf,

Some footage of the Apollo 11 recovery, quite interesting.



I'm really interested in this apollo story because obviously something happened with it around this, but for it to have been used as part of a hoax covering all nights, I don't buy it.
As you said Obs, Brenda Butler told me that some witnesses at ( or in? ) Foley House saw a Helicopter with a UFO slung underneath, around about this time. If you look at the images of the Skycrane lifting the boilerplate, you can see exactly why people at the time could have thought this was a UFO.

From those pictures it also appears that moving this thing around was some operation. How would this have taken place repeatedly over 3 days ( including placing the capsule on it's stand in the forest ), without somebody noticing that something was going on?

Adrian

[Observer]

Adrian

I believe it was the Boast family that lived in Foley cottage and my mum was friends with Mrs Boast. Mr Boast was a Forestry warden.
I should think that any body seeing the capsule under a heli and not aware of its existence would come to the conclusion it was some sort of space ship/alien craft or flying saucer.

There was also a British POL worker who's opposite shift colleague witnessed the same event of the capsule colliding with the landing lights while out on the Woodbridge flight line.

As for men in black, i can never get my head round this, were they Ministry officials, or simply plain clothes cops. Whichever, by knocking on doors they are in effect spreading the rumour to the locals.

It would be so useful if one of these locals that was questioned came forward and told us what they were asked by these alleged men in black.

Although i am suspicious that the Apollo capsule may have been involved in this incident, i can't quite make my mind up if was for a hoax.

Obs

[puddlepirate]

Hi Pupil88

Not the CSC - Central Security Control - that is not the comcen. The comcen, or it might have been known as the Main Communications Office or Main Signals Office - is manned by communications personnel, not security personnel. The Comcen, MCO or MSO is a secure compartment accessed by authorised personnel only. It handles all signal traffic in and out of an establishment (or base). There is usually a Signals Communications Officer (SCO) then probably a Chief Radio Supervisor, Radio Supervisor, Leading Radio Operator and Radio Operators - these ranks/rates would be called something else in the USAF but their functions would be pretty much the same. They would run three watches constantly because comms does not close down, not even for holiday periods. Any signal traffic be it national or NATO or relating to the RFI and there must have been such traffic, would have passed through the comcen for encryption, transmission and so forth. Inclusion of the term 'radio' in the various titles is a legacy thing. In 1980 comms was via various media, e.g. Radio Automatic Teletype (RATT using Murray code), Submarine Satellite Information eXchange System (SSIXS) and various computer systems such as OPCON 1. Not sure what systems the USAF would have used but they might have been clagged into the UKDCN or UKDTN for secure comms to Whitehall and elsewhere within the UK

Bruni referred to a precedence identified as 'flash over-ride'. I have never heard of this nor have others in comms that I have spoken to recently or worked with from 1981 to 1994. Flash is the highest precedence for signal traffic. Bruni also stated there was an increase in telephone traffic during the period of the RFI. If there was an increase in telephone traffic then almost certainly there had to be a corresponding increase in signal message traffic.

We need a comms guy (or gal) on here. NOT CSC - that is totally different. We are not talking about Marconi handheld devices used by SP/LE, this is big boys toys, backbone comms stuff across national and international secure networks.