Cobra Mist

[larry warren]

Silver, i think the work and effort you are putting into this case is beyond par !
your efforts to give jim a forum to express himself here is beyond par!
same goes for john, you truly should give your self a pat on the back! {if you can reach?]
this serries of very REAL events has produced some of the most toxic interpersonal interactions
over the last 30 years that ive ever experianced, and i too, am guilty of particapating in them!
and im not just talking about the rendleshamincident site, this is in the end ,a human issiue
with everyones oppionion chucked in for good measure, its the way of the world i guess.
so again thank you for your efforts on this matter!
cheers larry warren
ps, i dident know i had a guitar playing job? must have missed that one on the site!
case in point.

[Frank]

I think the notebook and other drawings came later, but he says the notebook was made at the time (he hasn't yet answered my question about the other drawings)

I heard that the drawing was copied from Jim's notebook during an interview.
If you listen to this recording:
http://www.earthfiles333.com/earthfiles ... ode57.html
(thanks for the link, Silvertop)
you can hear a new witness (Richard Bertolino) say how he actually witnesses Jim making this drawing in his notebook after they were picked up by a bus the night it happened.

This is further evidence that both the notebook and the drawing are from the time of the actual event.
What is your evidence that they were fabricated after Jim's hypnotic regression, Ian?

The whole interview is very interesting, by the way - it implies a rather hectic situation where the craft is moving from one place to another instead of a craft that is silently waiting to be examined. This corresponds to Jim talking about the men he posted on various positions that night and to his trouble remembering who was where when during the events.

[John Burroughs]

Frank
Later can be after the incident happened! Even if he was riding the bus back and working on the notebook it was after the incident happened! And Jim didnot post anybody else out he was only in charge of the 2 people with him. Everybody else fell under the shift commander and flight chiefs with the shift commander having the final say over all of us!!

[IanR]

I heard that the drawing was copied from Jim's notebook. If you listen to this recording:
http://www.earthfiles333.com/earthfiles ... ode57.html
(thanks for the link, Silvertop)
you can hear a new witness (Richard Bertolino) say how he actually witnesses Jim making this drawing in his notebook after they were picked up by a bus the night it happened.

Thanks for that link. This guy is a good new witness! His account accords very closely with what Buran and Chandler said in their statements -- as one would expect, since they were also monitoring the same radio communications from Penniston. Most significantly from our point of view, there is no support for the idea that Jim P spent 45 minutes examining a landed craft in any of these three accounts. Oddly, Bertolino substitutes Longero for Burroughs as a member of the patrol in the woods, but I guess that's a natural failure of memory after all this time. A few other observations are in order.

1. Bertolino gives a beautiful description of a fireball, although he times it somewhat earlier than 3 am - again a natural enough failure of memory. This is strong confirmation that this fireball is what started it all off.

2. Bertolino recalls that Penniston sketched for him a diamond-shaped (not triangular) craft on a tripod in his notebook. He does *not* say that Penniston showed him any existing notes or sketches.

3. Bertolino’s account, like all others, clearly contradicts the date and time in the notebook that Jim P now displays. I do not see how you reach your conclusion that "both the notebook and the drawing [of a triangular craft] are from the time of the actual event".

4. Bertolino describes the ‘landing marks’ in almost exactly the same way as did Chris Armold. Bertolino: “Cut out almost circular like you’d used a coffee can.” Armold: “They looked like an impression made by a 3 pound US coffee can”. Bertolino notes that the marks went right through the pine needles to the soil below, as you would expect from rabbit diggings.

5. Oh, and it seems there really were cows in the field at that time! So score me a "miss" on that one!

Ian

[IanR]

Larry, a quick question if I may.

Frank has kindly drawn my attention to a recent radio interview with Richard Bertolino who was on C flight at Bentwaters. In this interview he reports that in the early hours of December 26 he and his driver Sergeant Hall saw "a very bright falling star" from near the WSA.

In your letter home to your mother which you quote in LAEG, you wrote “At about three in the morning, a guy I know in D-Flight of Security Police told me he responded to a falling star outside the Weapons Storage Area".

Are Bertolino and the guy you knew two different people? Did you know Bertolino?

Thanks,
Ian

PS: And I agree with you that Silvertop has done us all a great favour for bringing Jim P to this Forum. And so has John B for answering so many questions.

[Frank]

I agree with you on the importance of this interview - any new witness may provide new pieces of the puzzle. It will not surprise you that I don't share your interpretations..

That must have been some clever rabbits - perfectly circular indentations in a perfect triangle. Didn't know rabbits were trained in mathematics in that area .. And it sounds perfectly natural to me that Europe was defended by people who were taking radiation readings from rabbit scratchings thinking a UFO landed there. Apparently you are convinced that rabbits have a higher IQ than Army Colonels.

About the date: The interviewer suggests it was dec 26 and after some hesitation Richard thinks it must have been - he clearly isn't sure of that.

The craft in Jim's drawing to me has a diamond-like appearance. I can imagine someone remembers it like that after 30 years. Note that the drawing we know could be a hand-made copy from the original.

Without all the other evidence surrounding the RFI I would buy your fireball story. However, high EM fields are often related to UFO sightings (including the RFI - the static electricity in the air). These fields could play an important role in their propulsion system (I would recommend reading Paul Hill's book I mention in my introduction to this forum - you'll like it, it applies a highly scientific yet open-minded approach to this problem). Therefore a fiery ball of light is commonly associated with a UFO sighting. What makes it a UFO is the fact that is changes direction, lands and takes off again. Fireballs just can't do that..
Another effect of this plasma is that you can not see the shape of the craft very well. Almost every foton that is reflected from its surface is absorbed and scattered by the surrounding plasma (it's all in Hill's book).

[Andrew Pike]

Be careful not to confuse fireball in its astronomical sense, a piece of space debris entering our atmosphere, which was happening on 25/26 December 1980 in a quite spectacular way, and fireball in the sense of a charged gas (plasma) in the meteorological sense.

[IanR]

About the date: The interviewer suggests it was dec 26 and after some hesitation Richard thinks it must have been - he clearly isn't sure of that.

The date is obvious from the context -- Bertolino tells us it was the night that Chandler was out there with B, P and C (although Bertolino places Longero out there instead of Burroughs), even to the detail of the local PCs turning up and talking to Chandler, which we know they did some time after 4 am on Dec 26.

It's interesting that the following morning someone was already out there waving a geiger counter around, and obviously not getting much or the whole area would have been sealed off.

I'm not sure what you mean by a 'perfect' triangle as any three points will make a triangle. But Vince's sketch shows us that one side was longer than the other two. And he, who certainly knew the forest better than any USAF Colonel, had no difficult identifying the marks as rabbit diggings.
http://www.ianridpath.com/ufo/rendlesham5.htm

Ian

[larry warren]

Hi Ian,
in response to the question you have posted to me,

Yes i knew Rick rather well, i first met him at Maguiar AFB on my way
to Bentwaters, we flew over togather, he must have finnished leave
back home?
i think the falling star bit, was me trying to be cleaver in comunicating
what happened to my mom with out getting into trouble, i dont
recall falling stars or meteors durring that time frame although mabey
i saw the paper and incorporated it ? not sure, what i was trying to tell
my mother was the reason we got cut off on the phone, that was on 6
jan 81. funny enough that very poorly writen letter is very similar
to col Halts memo! compair the two, its weird thenHalt does his memo
on the 13th and my mother responds a few days later!
i have all of it still with envelopes ect,again i was trying to combine
elements and talk about me in the second person, im the guy i know !
at the end of that letter i write that when i get home i will tell her the
full story of the ufo, i cant in the mail, they read it !
yes, i was an idiot, anyway i dont think i ever talked to rick about
the ufo, but he often rode shotgun for col Halt.
im on that facebook thing, due to our inpending 30 year HS reunion,
on the photo section ive posted alot of my pictures from Bentwaters,
in them you will find Rick and other known people, called Bentwaters
Back in the day, those ive posted as to assist all well intentioned parties! have a look.
thanks for the question, sorry about the long answer!
ps, i really dont think Jim would fabracate an inch of his account
he really was a BY THE BOOK SP, as to him being messed with
after the fact, welcome to the club.
Cheers larry

[larry warren]

Sorry correction,
if i dont be very CLEAR, some will run with it !
i called my mother within hours of our event, was cut off on the call
and was with greg battram, i wrote the letter to my mom on 6 jan 81.
thats all folks !

[IanR]

sorry about the long answer!

H'm. A bit confused now...

In Left at East Gate, you quote from your letter home as follows:
>"At about three in the morning, a guy I know in D-Flight of Security Police [the same flight at Bentwaters to which Warren was assigned] told me he responded to a falling star outside the Weapons Storage Area...
>“Anyway he reported it and then everyone started feeling strange – then a guy on the Backgate at Woodbridge reported a bright light moving through the pine forest. An officer and two sergeants responded but they could not take weapons because they were off base.
>“Over the radio they reported seeing a pie-shaped object – about 7 by 8 ft in size. But they said every time they would get near it, it would seem further away all of a sudden. They also said that all the animals in the forest were going nuts.
>“Then all of a sudden the light went out – and over the radio they said they didn't like the situation and wanted to go back to base – but they were told to keep on investigating.
>“Then they said the thing appeared behind them – it seemed like it was playing games. After 3 and a half miles of following the thing through the countryside and woods – the thing just disappeared in a field. It was only about 10 ft off the ground. This is what a friend of mine said he heard on the radio.
>“At that same time, me and five other guys were walking up a dark path about 2 miles from base... cause we couldn't get a ride and we felt like we were being watched and it was strange cause there were no street lights – Then we saw a bright light go right over us about 50 feet up and just fly over a field. It was silent. We first thought it was an A-10 jet. But they scream. So we ran away, because witchcraft and black magic is a big thing in this part of Suffolk and we thought that witches were in the woods. That light just seemed to jump over the trees – Then the next day it turned out that we were in the same place as the U.F.O. so I think we saw it too.”

This is consistent with what Bertolino says in his interview. But are you now saying that there are parts of this story that are not strictly true? Can you be more specific? (I'm not trying to catch you out - I'm just intrigued by the idea that you saw the fireball on the first night as well.)

Cheers,
Ian

[larry warren]

Hi Ian,
no problem, i took bits and peices and info from here and there mixed them up and sent them
to my mom, i was trying to be one step removed from what i saw, so if i did get nailed, witch i did! they couldent prove anything.
also we did come back from ipswitch that day and some weird stuff happened on the road,
i dont have the book, but i think its all covered in it.
i can assure you on my sons head, that Rick never discused these events with me, nor was i
awere that he had any involvement in them!
he was a nice guy, and i dont dought his perseptions, the similarity of my letter home, and
Halts memo is frankly stunning, as i authored my letter a week before the col authored his.
i was watering things down! i suspect Halt did the same with his memo!
cheers Larry

[Frank]

The date is obvious from the context -- Bertolino tells us it was the night that Chandler was out there with B, P and C (although Bertolino places Longero out there instead of Burroughs), even to the detail of the local PCs turning up and talking to Chandler, which we know they did some time after 4 am on Dec 26.

True, the conflicting dates in the witness statements (dec 26), Bertolino's interview (that corroborates with the witness statements) and Halt's memo & Jim's notebook (both dec 27) is a bit confusing. Hopefully this will be resolved by the timeline that Jim and John are going to reconstruct.

[Frank]

It's interesting that the following morning someone was already out there waving a geiger counter around, and obviously not getting much or the whole area would have been sealed off.

I always thought it was peculiar that Halt and his men investigated a site in the pitch-dark that was already there for 2 days, had been investigated earlier and could be investigated again in daylight the next day.

Now if you go to the following site, download the MP3 and scroll to 15:25 you can hear Halt say that upon arriving in the forest “they showed me a glowing place in the forest you could see it through a Starlight Scope and then took me into the woods and showed me indentations in the ground where the alleged craft had been sighted before by Penniston and Burroughs.”

http://www.ufoplaza.nl/downloads.php?view=detail&id=70
(enter the code below the frame and press download next to it - the green arrow does not work).

This means that the site radiated residual heat that could be viewed from some distance with a Starlight Scope. On Halt’s tape you can hear how they also get some residual heat radiation from the indentations, the center spot and the pine trees. Now how can a landing site that is already two days old still radiate heat during a cold winter if it was not particularly hot initially?

Could this be an indication that Halt was investigating a recent landing site of a craft that departed that same night? This would surely be a more logical reason to investigate it in the dark, while it was still fresh. Maybe Halt misunderstood the men that took him to “the landing site” and immediately assumed it was that of Jim and John.

This seems to be the case if you watch the moment in the Sci-Fi doc where Col. Halt and Jim discover they were talking about two different landing sites. That is why I asked Jim this question:

2. In the SciFi documentary on the Rendlesham Incident, you and Col. Halt discovered that you were talking about different landing sites. Was the landing site that Col. Halt identified the same as the site with indentation marks that John Burroughs discovered during the first night, or was it a different one that was not related to the events of the first night?

Answer: No, they were two geographically separate locations. The indentation marks that John discovered were not the same as the night Colonel Halts encounter. Interesting thing was, both sites had farm houses nearby and the measurements and depressions were identical at both locations. Thus some confusion. A one-in-billion encounter and why would anyone question two sites. We all assumed it was one location because of all the similarities.

Just a thought, but it would surely put Larry’s account in a whole new perspective: Did he witness the take-off before Col. Halt and John arrived?

Any comments? (I am not planning to quarrel about whether this is right or wrong, just curious about your opinions)

[IanR]

Any comments? (I am not planning to quarrel about whether this is right or wrong, just curious about your opinions)

Col Halt's recent statements are so at variance with what's on his original tape that I now pay no attention to them. You can hear what actually happened by listening to the tape, along with my transcript here
http://www.ianridpath.com/ufo/halttape.htm

Jim P's suggestion that there were two landing sites with identical sets of depressions and farmhouses nearby seems to me to stretch credibility. I cannot see that this would appeal to those of you looking for a simple answer. Incidentally, the farmhouse near this 'other' landing site on the western side of the forest can only be Folly House, which (as you may know) was rented by USAF personnel at the time.

Ian

[larry warren]

For Frank,
Hi frank, when i shot the history channel mess in the forrest, the director took me to both sites
WITHIN the forrest, because i was simply currious as anyone else would be, it only makes sence
that the first night incident left traces, two nights later somthing came back, within the trees,
landed again, thus Halt and others went out to investagate it, and went to where the second landing happened.
as that investagation took place IN THE FORREST, near caple green , i and others were brought out ie, lightalls ect.
what i DID see took place out in the field and not within the forrest! further i never saw anything take off, nor have i ever said i did, Three solid landings in three nights,
thats what i beleive!
i know that Col Halt, now says i was there, but in the background , GREAT NEWS !eh
but if what i saw was in the background, what the Hell was going in in the forground?
mabey its best not to know?
time line? how is this possible, and what bias will be infused into it?
just some thoughts!
cheers

[oOo]

If what these fellas were observing was, for the lack of a better description...a time machine, I'm not surprised at all that said fellas have discrepancies with their timelines. A screwed up timeline seems to be the motivation for making a flashback to 1980 in the first place (if my interpretation of the hypnosis sessions is correct) so a screwy timeline sticks out like a Blues clue when I look at it sideways.

The guys said that time seemed to them to be running slow, and in a different sensation than one experiences from an adrenalin induced temporal distortion. True?

Supposing for a moment that Jim and John were in the presence of such an exotic piece of kit, would it be that much of a stretch to expect some very strange side effects to come into play? For example, maybe the closer you get to it, the more intense the time distortion effect becomes. Jim walks around it up close kicking the tyres and what not, and to him it feels like 45 minutes has elapsed. Meanwhile, John is standing further away from it and to him only a few minutes has passed. Maybe it's parked up in an intersection point of multiple timelines, so what Jim sees is not the same as what John sees and although they are standing relatively close to one another, they are also simultaneously multiverses apart.

Then the thing starts to move around the X,Y and Z because we are used to a World of aeroplanes and choppers and thats how we perceive its movement in our frame of reference. But you see, we forgot it was a time machine and it was actually sitting at 0,0,0,0 the whole time whilst it was time and space that was doing the moving.

It was either a time machine or it wasn't...no harm in assuming for a few moments that it was eh.

So when did it come from? A few hundred years? A few thousand years? Sixty five million years? Or did it come from the diagonal? Certainly hope it comes back again, it's sure got a lot to answer for.

[Frank]

Thanks for your update, Larry!

It seems that reconstructing a timeline for the third night is even harder than for the first night ... Hopefully you and the other witnesses will come together some day to solve this issue once and for all.

[Frank]

Col Halt's recent statements are so at variance with what's on his original tape that I now pay no attention to them. (...)
Jim P's suggestion that there were two landing sites with identical sets of depressions and farmhouses nearby seems to me to stretch credibility. I cannot see that this would appeal to those of you looking for a simple answer.

Ignoring additional facts by calling them inconsistencies is not going to help us to get closer to the truth. And ignoring key witnesses is an irrational way of convincing yourself.

[larry warren]

Hi Frank,
I would love to know how a time line can be established for ANY of the nights?
30 years is a long time, and considering the bizzar effects on the wittinesses i feel it is impossible, unless one simply wishes to fill in the blanks FOR THERE OWNE NEEDS! then it
just may work out for some.
Ofcourse, i have no TRAINING in these matters!
Cheers for your quest!
Larry