Penniston on UFO UpDates [Re: BBC article]

[IanR]

John, I had agreed to met you in person for a serious discussion, not to participate in a circus. I invited you to choose, and it seems you have chosen the circus.

You have absolutely no idea what sort of people are going to be out there, nor how many, and no way of controlling them. This is a recipe for confusion, if not disaster.

I do not see that the type of event you are proposing will go any way to getting closer to the truth of what happened 30 years ago.

Anyone who wants to know what my ideas are and the evidence that led to them can find out on my website, where it has been available for scrutiny for years. I am always keen to update it where reliable additional information becomes available.

I will read your answers to the questions put to you by the Forum members with interest. They have already drawn attention to various contradictions and anomalies that tend to discredit more recent versions of the story. I would want to know why we should not draw the obvious conclusion from your original statement “We got up to a fense (sic) that separated the trees from the open field and you could see the lights down by a farmer’s house... Once we reached the farmer’s house we could see a beacon going around so we went towards it. We followed it for about 2 miles before we could [see] it was comming (sic) from a light house”.

If any broadcasters want me to talk about the 30th anniversary of the case in December I shall let them know you are here.

As I have said to you before, I wish you luck getting compensation from the USAF for your health problems, but I do not think you will find the answer in Rendlesham Forest, and certainly not with such an ill-thought-out venture as the one you propose.

Ian

[IanR]

John and I receive our schooling at the Security Police Academy, in Texas. My field of expertise is Criminal Justice, and it does cover how to get facts during an investigation.

So how come you couldn’t even get the date and time of the incident right in your notebook? Why did you use the civilian and not military time format?

Where is the supporting evidence for your alternative landing site? Even your own diagram of your route that night (which, of course, you now repudiate) shows you drove well past the spot before walking further eastwards, away from it.
http://rendlesham-incident.co.uk/eviden ... statement/

Why was there no mention of your 45-minute encounter with a landed craft on the radio transmissions monitored by Buran, Chandler and others that night? Why does even John Burroughs, who was within yards of you throughout, deny that you examined a landed craft or made the notes that you now display? Why are the notes that you read out to Salley Rayl in an interview for Omni magazine in the 1990s different from those in the notebook you have shown to the TV cameras? Will you submit the notebook for forensic examination?

Are you aware that Col Conrad has told us that in your debrief with him you said that you didn't get close enough to the object for a detailed look? He said you told him you followed the light to an open field whereupon it disappeared beyond a small rise in the direction of a farm house. Doesn’t that sound the same as the statements made by John B and Ed Cabansag, as well as what Col Halt saw two nights later? (John and Ed identified the light, but Halt didn’t.)

Was the 45-minute examination before or after you chased the object through the forest and out into the field? Have you checked the timings in Buran’s statement to see if a 45-minute examination could have been possible in addition to the chase?

Are you aware that after your own sighting your law enforcement colleague Chris Armold went out again to the site with Burroughs and could still see lights in the distance, even after you say the supposed craft had departed? (Armold later commented to my colleague James Easton: “I'm very disappointed at how silly this makes 81st SPS appear. It was a good squadron with very competent people who worked hard... on a base of several thousand Americans, why are these few individuals who can't get a story straight, the only ones whose story is taken as gospel?”).

Why do you think your colleagues went looking for a landing site on the eastern side of the forest, rather than much closer to East Gate where you place your alternative site?

Why do you think that Col Halt disbelieves your story of this second landing site? Is it because of this disagreement that Halt, in his last TV appearance, appeared with Monroe Nevels rather than you?

Are you aware that Captain Bernard Donahue, the Area Defense Counsel at Bentwaters, saw the Security Police Blotter describing the incident and said “Most of us on base were embarrassed by this ‘incident’. We didn’t believe the UFO hype for one minute.”?

Are you aware that the local police said they thought the culprit was the lighthouse, as did one of your superior officers?

There is now a great deal more about this case in the public domain and off the record than you perhaps first realized. In your posting I see a patronising tone from a man who realizes he has been rumbled (as we say in England).

[John Burroughs]

IAN
As usual you picked and choose what you wanted from my statement! Missed a part did you not the part even Dave Clarke said cannot be explained! It truley shows what kind of person you are! We crossed a small open field that led into where the light were comming from and as we were comming into the trees there were strange noises like a women screaming! Also the woods lit up and you could hear the farm animals makeing alot of noise's! And then there was alot of movement in the woods! All three of us hit the ground and what ever it was started back towards the open field! As you can also see I drew a picture of what we encountered! After what ever it was moved back we did go forword and what you put in your last post is in my statement! You can't show what we encountered was the light house stars or planets! That night we were on duty and encountered somthing of unknowen origin! We had to on a moments notice respond out and report what was happening and then deal with it from that pointe on! Having you go out into the woods with us should be no problem for you follow us to the spot and show everybody what you have been saying for the past 20 years! I'm not going to debate you on everything else that has been said for the past 20 years that you have taken upon yourself to break down in your favor using what ever you hand picked to make you look good! I just have showen now how you choose to do that! And I can't beleive your saying that people who would like to show up that night and have you show them how thats possible would make it into a circus! You see you are the one guilty of that! You can't take the heat of being put on the spot can you! Its ok to sneak out into the woods with your BBC friend and poke fun of us or hide behind your web site but you won't face us at the spot it happened! You have showen your true colors IAN to everybody! So keep hiding behind your computer you really do have a problem and I feel sorry for you!

[John Burroughs]

IAN
A couple more things on your reply to Jim! Your the one who is Rumbled not us! You won't even show up on the 28th! Yes I have said I didnot see Jim spend 45 min around the craft taking notes and pictures when I was asked! I said that because I did'nt and I can understand why that my be hard for people to understand! Who is the Superior Officer COL Ted Conrad? IF it is you better be willing to put out what else he said because I know what it was! You also listed a guy who made a statement from the base who worked ADC who was not out there! Thats all you have and its not even from someone who was on duty! But the last time I checked there sure are alot more people who were on duty that verify somthing strange happened and that it was not the light house! As far as Chris Armold goes well he never said it was the light house and he showed up afterwards! And I would be happy to talk with Chris about it if he would ever show his face! You don't want to show up fine keep hiding behind that web site and computer! And by the way Jim mention you were picking on Larry will he keeps saying its in my book read my book the same book you have taken shots at! Its kind of funny to now hear you see look at my web page its on my web page! And its to bad you won't let everybody read what you had to say about how Col Halts team was fooled by a star it would have made for some good reading or is it on your web page!! And by the way Jim and I will still be out there on the 28th for anyone who would like to show up! Were not afraid of anybody getting out of hand! And we will be happy to show you how it was not the Light House and IAN won't be able to say he was not given a chance to be there!

[tpreitzel]

Guys,

When you're in England over December 28, 2010, please have a couple of folks recording everything (equipment suitable for use at night) in your immediate group for the sake of posterity. One can always edit the videos later for the purpose of production. Demonstrate your recall of the events decades earlier to the world and let the people decide for themselves. Best wishes.

[Frank]

Yes I have said I didnot see Jim spend 45 min around the craft taking notes and pictures when I was asked! I said that because I did'nt and I can understand why that my be hard for people to understand!

John, Jim,
I’m certainly not trying to join in on debunking this case, but this issue has been burning on my mind for a long time (and I think I’m not the only one). I would very much like a discussion on this issue and want to kick-off with a proposed scenario. I would appreciate your comments!

From the information now in the public domain we know:
1 - John was “taken” by a craft/beam for 20-25 minutes on the third night. Adrian witnessed it but John only remembers the craft coming towards him and over him and the next thing he knows he saw it moving away. He has no conscious memory of the 20-25 minutes that passed. So apparently this is what happens when someone is “abducted”, he remembers nothing of what happens in between.
2 - Nevels was informed by Englund within hours after the first night that an airman was abducted on the first night, too.
3 - In John’s hypnotic regression he does not seem to recall how he got where he was.
4 - The landing site that Jim remembers was not on the route the men initially took into the forest.
5 – In the recent MOD files, two different drawings of a craft have surfaced. A cone/egg shaped craft with circular footprints and a triangular craft with V-shaped footprints.
6 - Jim remembers a thorough investigation of a triangular landed craft. He remembers it took place after Ed was left behind as a radio relay. John only remembers a short encounter with lights that seemed to project the shape of a craft. He remembers this took place before Ed was left behind. Ed only remembers seeing a cone/egg shaped craft.
7 - Jim remembers suddenly standing next to John after his investigation, which surprised him.
8 - It seems that two landing sites were investigated by two different teams right after the first night, one with V-shaped landing marks and the other one with circular landing marks.

If these facts are combined, a possible scenario emerges.
In this scenario, both Jim and John are “taken” by a craft shortly after leaving Ed behind, which would be shortly after the encounter that both John and Ed remember. This was an encounter with a cone/egg shaped craft that left circular footprints. (In John’s hypnotic regression he remembers humming and the earth shaking and then being pulled towards a craft. This may be the point where they are “taken”.)
Jim and John are transported to a safe location where only Jim is released to allow him to investigate a triangular craft, leaving V-shaped footprints. This means that Jim’s investigation was planned deliberately by whoever owns this craft, on a location away from possible threats from armed forces on alert. John, however, is released from his abduction later, when the craft departs or has departed (possibly to keep the threat level for the craft to a minimum). So to his surprise, Jim suddenly finds John standing next to him and supposes he was there all the time.
John only remembers their first encounter, a short chase and then suddenly finds himself standing next to Jim. He realizes on his way back that he has no memory of how he got there.
Jim’s memory of the first and second encounter are either mixed up or his memory of the first encounter is erased entirely.
We don’t have much information on what happened to Ed, but in an interview in Bruni’s book he, too, seems to have a “gap” in his memory somehow.

I realize that this sounds like a story right out of science fiction movie, but like Arthur C. Clarke once said: “any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic”.
The result of this scenario is two landing sites, two crafts, and different memories of witnesses that seem contradictory but in reality are not. So this scenario fits all the major facts.
Another intriguing result is that the investigation of the craft was possibly intended, which would give the symbols a whole new meaning.

Can you and Jim give your opinion about this?

[Admin]

From the information now in the public domain we know:

I agree with most of the points you make, Frank, however I personally wouldn't pay so much attention to the slight variations in the witnesses' descriptions of the craft(s). Instead of evidence of two objects, perhaps the variations are... just variations? Cabansag's description of an egg-shaped craft, for example, may have been 'rough'. By all accounts, he was further back than both John and Jim.

Penniston's second sketch, to me, appears to show a triangular craft. Even if the triangle's edges are round and its shape is rather squashed, it is still a triangle in my opinion.

I would agree that two landing sites could have been created and later examined, but I believe the marks were circular in both cases. Perhaps I should put this question to Jim.

[AgentAppleseed]

From this moment on, let no one forget the fact that this weekends events have illustrated, with a crystalline clarity, that the men of the USAF 81st SPS have been repeatedly used, and exploited, by wholly shameless individuals, who have sought, not only to marginalize these men, but also to glean worldly gain from the successes of their efforts in doing so!
How can anyone in the possession of a single iota of basic human decency and empathy; condone or defend, those who would seek to further marginalize and destroy, the reputations of men who have already been pushed out, into the furthest margins of our society, men who have paid such a highly unfair and unjust price for their efforts in seeking justice, and recognition, for the injustice that has been dealt upon them.
How can anyone condone or defend, any individual, who would stand by, and fail to condemn; such a stomach churningly arrogant, and up in the face display, of complete and utter ignorance and apathy that was the Evan Davis article.
How can anyone defend or condone, individuals who are fully aware of all of the above and who are also fully aware of the personal toll their actions have taken on the witnesses, and who, despite that knowledge, would continue, to so wickedly use and exploit the situation, for their personal profit, by appearing on the B.B.C and standing by Evan Davis and his despicably apathetic comments, in a mind numbingly callous attempt to launch a book, off the back of it all!! A book which happens to go by the oh-so-ironic title; "Mirage Men", and which was written by Mark Pilkington. A book which was obviously written as an oh-so-typical attempt on the part of its author, to cash in, on the latest fad to be inflicted upon the already vulnerable, and confused UFO enthusiasts, or "believers," as Ian Ridpath loves to label them. Of course,the word "belief" coming from him, is a thinly veiled insult in itself!
I, for one, shall be boycotting that book, and its author, and I call on anyone else who agrees with what I`m saying, to do the same. Surely, if there is, any justice left at all, in this sick and sorry world, then no luck at all can come, from something that has been promoted in the shameless fashion it has been.
Alas, it seems these days, we really do live in an era vulgaris!
Thanks to the good people of face-book who so eagerly answered John Burroughs call to defend and give voice to their anger; a line has been drawn in the sand, and it has been made known, in no uncertain terms, that this kind of behavior, will no longer be tolerated by ordinary, decent, and concerned human beings.
To those with the eyes to see, it has become obvious, that what these people fear the most, is that the witnesses will gain the force of positive public opinion behind them, a force which will drive this case forward, out of the margins, and up, and into the light of the mainstream, where the sharks, and the snakes can no longer hide their bullying and their wickedly intellectual and psychotic contempt for the intellect of the ordinary man. Nobody, but nobody; has the god given right to know what happened in Rendlesham Forest in 1980, if that knowledge is gained at the expense of the witnesses. Everybody has a right to talk about it, everybody has a right to speculate and to hypothesize, but what you do not have, is the right to do any of this, if it is done at the expense of the witnesses.
If you really do want to see this issue be resolved, then the only way to do this, is to get behind the witnesses, and support them in their efforts to bring about the change, that will be needed, in order to bring the truth of this incident, out into the light.
For now,
Peace, love, and most importantly,empathy to you all!

[John Burroughs]

Frank
I can see you have spent a lot of time looking into this incident! Lest brake a few things down! 1. The area Jim Ed and I went to and had are first encounter can not be tied into the light house planets and stars! Ian even tried to say Ed and I followed a beacon which we identified as being the light house! We did but that was after we had are encounter with what ever it was and it moved back into the trees and we followed it! Ian and Dave Clarke both know they can't tie that first encounter into what Ian has been trying to say on his web site and in interviews he has done! Dave Clarke has even admitted in a interview he did with the BBC that he does not know what we encountered! This is why Ian won't meet us on the 28th because he knows if he does he is dead in the water on are encounter being the light house!

As far as if I was abducted or not! I don't have a answer for you! There were 3 things that started right after the incident that happened. There was a Ufo and alien contact started in the pubs we no who started that and only he can tell you why! The second thing is I jumped on the craft and or was taken up in it! I got close to something twice once with the 3 of us on the first night and with Adrian on the 3rd night! On the night I was with Adrian what ever it was came over me the white oranges light and then exploded with several blue light coming out of it! This came from Adrian who was behind me laying on the ground watching this happen!The 3rd rumor was we brought down a Russian Sat which is something that has been talked about by Ian! The thing is 2 Russian Sat came down one on the first night and one on the 3rd night! And one of the things I have found out is we did have the ability to bring them down! The way we could bring them does is using radar straight line radar! And guess what there was more than one Radar station in the area! In fact there was 3 radar station's that formed a triangle over the forest! One of the things Lord Hill-Norton was asking about is one of the station that had to do with the space program the was a joint British American venture! Also a lot of the black ops stuff was being worked on in your country because Carter was gutting the military and Black ops programs in the US!

If we did bring down Russian spy Sat the Russian would want them back and there were be a race to recover them! The 67th par rescue commander was the number one person in the military on recovering Sat! The other thing is that the spy Sat were powered by a small nuclear reactor! Which if damaged would put out nuclear contamination. We also had uav back then not like todays but we had them! What kind of effect would we encounter if they were blasting radar beams in the area and could it cause some kind of time warp effect ! What kind of tech would both sides use if there was a race to recover those Sat! Would the radar beams also effect are memory and how we viewed what we saw?

I will add more in a later post but these are also things to look at and ponder!!Could we have had a ET encounter yes could it have been us or something from the future or a combination of all of that you bet. One more thing IAN referred to is Col Conrad and statements that he made! He has inside information which I have also seen which as usual he is only giving you bits and pieces of! And guess what Col Conrad stated the same thing I just did it could be many different possibilities that we encountered out there that night! And he was not sure what it was!

[Frank]

OK, John, thanks for your reply.

I agree that there can be many causes for a lot of what the witnesses have seen that night. So how to determine if it was one or the other? That is exactly why I think Jim's description of the take-off is a crucial element in the case. His description clearly makes this an encounter with something that was not made by "us": Gone in the blink of an eye without any sound is something so advanced that we can safely rule out it was within our reach 30 years ago. (By the way, in one of his telephone interviews Adrian describes a similar take-off on the third night.)

So Jim's encounter is a crucial element to determine if this was "alien" or not ("alien" of course can mean a lot of things). And this in turn makes the difference between your description of the encounter and that of Jim a very important element in the whole case. That is why I am specifically trying to find an explanation for this difference.

I would very much like to hear Jim's opinion, too.

[John Burroughs]

Frank
All 3 of us have said it was gone in a blink of a eye! What ever it was lifted up and went back with and was gone that fast with know noise. There is about a 8 min piece on my Hypnosis on you tube which you might want to take a look at. I truly have know Idea why that is there but it is. Jim has never said there was 2 encounters he just has described differently the encounter we had. It has been stated that there was 45 min were they lost Radio contact with us! Ed has described in more than one interview saying all 3 of us came up on it Jim being the closest even going as far as saying I drew my gun on it and then all of us going blank! I remember when we came upon it Jim yelling out fire on it! No it was not in my statement I didn't put everything that happened in it! I do not remember being armed Jim and Ed say I was! After that I remember it moving away in a blink of a eye and was gone! If something did happen to us that might be the time that it did! Does that mean there were 2 landing sites no but if we were moved I guess it could mean that! Jim has now gone on the record not only saying which he has said before that the statement released was not his but that one that he produced was signed and used by Halt to produce his memo and is classified! It would explain the reason why Halt used the date of the 27th in the memo if his statement was dated the 27th plus his notebook also had the same date the 27th! This much I will say Halts memo Jim's notebook and several other people have gotten the date wrong which is interesting! Also certain Officers have been clearly covering for other Officers on how much involvement they had with the incident! Why and this is according to the Mod would a 4 star general who was the commander of 3rd Air Force come in and take all of the evidence if nothing of Defense significance happened! One more thing to ponder things can be made to look like they disappeared faster than they did!

[stephan]

Also certain Officers have been clearly covering for other Officers on how much involvement they had with the incident! Why and this is according to the Mod would a 4 star general who was the commander of 3rd Air Force come in and take all of the evidence if nothing of Defense significance happened! One more thing to ponder things can be made to look like they disappeared faster than they did!

John, are you alluding to General Basie? If so, C. Halt said in a telephone conversation with Peter Robbins:

I would never have said that because Gordon Williams is a very personal friend of mine to this day and was not there. Was never there, was never at the site. When he found out about the incident, he was very interested, I mean to the point where he said, ''Hey, you've got to get me into this next time. I want to be involved. Call me the next time you know anything - get me there.'' In fact, some things happened later that I called him. Gordon Williams was never, never there, and he will tell you that personally.

[...]

I confronted Gordon Williams two days later [...] It was the tape; [...] He said, may I borrow the tape and take it to play at General Basie's, who was then third air force commander.

source: Left At East Gate, pages 327/328

so if Basie took all of the evidence it must have been at least two days later.

[oOo]

What was the weather like preceding, during and after the events?
Is the Met data of the time still available? Is there anything about the topography of the area that lends itself to weather/atmospheric anomalies? I.E it wasn't the first or last time strange lights inhabited the night. Has the Min Min light angle been crapped over with sufficient expertise that makes it an impossibility or at the least...very unlikely? Could such a natural but bizzare looking mind-phuc be exploitable by the whomevers for psych purposes? Or would it psych them out as well?

If it was a Sat, be it Sov, US or a sat specifically designed for a Star Wars test, and if some part of it was to make it to the ground intact...where would it's re-entry interface had to have taken place in order for it not to plough into Suffolk like a meteorite? Seems a strange place to conduct such a mission...like, make a small miscalculation or over-rate the ability to 'make it so' and oops there goes the nuclear power station or oops how do we explain the crater in the WSA or schit..that poor bugger in Ipswich with the hole in his roof and the sat in bed next to him where his Mrs used to be.

Did Steve LaPlume ever sketch or have an artists rendition of what he saw?

[Deep Purple]

This has been an interesting thread--- a bit of a cat fight.
At home my two Tom Cats dont like the big female who comes in for food and its all hisses and yowls.
Credit to her she comes back very day and faces them down--- now thats one tough bitch eh?

If we step back a bit and look at whats happened, if this was a hoax why do we have so many people coming forward giving very detailed albiet differing accounts of what happened. Even recently during the last year we've had people turn up who were there and given loads of information--- typing many pages--- if it was all a load of rubbish why bother? whats in it for them? For these posters there is no obvious reward
The botom line is we cant say what happened but there are a lot of witnesses saying something strange happened.
But more than this you can bet that some posters are linked to the security services and trying to turn threads away from the truth.
Involving the BBC is a load of crap--- they have their agenda and its the "silly americans got it all wrong ha ha ha ha"-- I wouldnt trust the BBC at all nowdays--- they are little more than a politically motivated PR machine for left wing liberal agenda. They spin it one way and then another.
All the BBC would want to do is a 2 min presentation on Newsnight showing how wrong ufologists are.

Storm , Stephan have some good ideas.
Storm is very angry, and lets this make into drift into areas that are not relevant eg which side is military better.
Flames Wars will not resolve RFI

Hyper crictical analysis of minor details will solve it either---- this is not a TV murder trial series.

Something weird did happen--- if we row together we might stand a chance of finding out what it was

[stephan]

if this was a hoax why do we have so many people coming forward giving very detailed albiet differing accounts of what happened.

good point! I've also thought that if it was, there would certainly be plenty of reasons for agencies (NSA, CIA etc) and government institutions (MoD, DoD etc) and of course the USAF(E) to sue the witnesses for libel ... eg latter have accused them of covering up the truth, denying the facts, threatening witnesses with death (bullets are cheap) etc ... unless these agencies and instituions were themselves behind the whole thing (i.e. witnesses being agents acting on behalf of them) which would be ridiculous. Or is it that anyone can do so today and could do for the last thirty years without being punished/ sued ?

So what the heck are they hiding... the truth of course... but what is it ? The witnesses but ALSO everyone else on Earth has a right to know - at least if it involves extraterrestrials which would be (according DeCaro in LAEG I guess) the story of the millenium (next to the 2nd coming of Jesus).

btw, as we are dealing a bit with ''how to treat the witnesses'' in this thread. I've come across a nice passage today in LAEG:

Remaining dispassionate in the heat of an investigation is crucial to any type of good detective work. But unless investigators are professionally as well as ethically responsible enough to put the well-being of their subject before any self-serving research goal, they might want to direct their energies into another speciality.

source: Left At East Gate, p. 410

[AgentAppleseed]

Well, that`s a good quote in, and of itself, and I would agree with it, but even that`s a whole different thing to what we are talking about here!
If I`m not mistaken, what Peter Robins is speaking about, is professional etiquette.
This thread is about something different in my opinion, although it is, of course, fair to say, the two are related. However, you just cant get the two mixed up. You`ve got to remain clear about the differences. If you cant, well, in my opinion its time to get out of the game. Its really that simple! There`s quite a difference between destroying peoples reputations, and Knowing how to conduct oneself in a professional manner. This thread is different, in that, it is a stand against all of the former, when it manifests itself in the extreme. We have quite clearly underlined the fact that this behavior will no longer be tolerated, in a laid back and altogether complacent matter by parties who would consider themselves concerned in any real way at all, with the current situation.
For people like yourself, and myself Stephan, it might be more relevant to quote one of Larry Warrens sayings-"This stuff is just jack off fiction for armchair jockeys!"
Well, unfortunately, he`s right. It sounds defeatist I know, but who can blame Larry for feeling that way. And I love Larry, I have the deepest respect for him, and all the other guys. I`m aware that it doesn`t need explaining, but just bear with me here, this entire affair is simply entertainment to some people. Most people can tune in, and entertain themselves for an hour or two with it, then curse it, laugh at it, troll people over it, jerk off to it, or whatever! Then, when they are tired of it, they can indeed, indulge in the luxury of simply switching off, or logging off, and that`s it, as far as they are concerned. But for the guy`s, its real life. Its not t.v, or social networking! For the guy`s, its different, they have to live with it. There is no logging off, when they get tired of hearing about it. There is no logging off, when they get tired of being run into the ground over it, or they just want a break from it. Its always there! Jim Penniston and John Burroughs cant even sleep at night over it. Larry`s been through hell for it. Col Halt has also been through the mill. You see, to most people, its just stuff you see on the television, and so they can indulge in the luxury of,.... whatever! And when you come out and tell everyone, everyone wants a piece of you. Be it reporters, or people on a forum, everyone wants to ask one more question, one more poke, one more prod, and it goes on and on and on.....But the thing is, some people are never satisfied. They want more, more, more. If its not, just one more question, its that, the answer isn`t good enough,.... or whatever. And some people ask the most ridiculous questions, where the information is already out there,.... you know what I mean? And people have got a right to ask, anything they want to ask. I`m only suggesting, that maybe, some people should put a bit more thought into what they want to ask, so that they don`t have to be asking the same questions over and over. There`s already a huge amount of information out there. I mean why even bother taking the guys time up, with something like that, and I realize they`d probably be happy to answer it anyway, in fact I know they would, and I`m not trying to put words in the mouth of anyone here, but its just that, sometimes you`ve just got to think, of what other people need, too. Its about give and take, not take, take, take...... You know? A little respect goes a long way, or maybe for someone to come along and say, well how can I help out here? The guys have needs too, that`s why for me, its important that my presence here on this forum, is first and foremost, to show my support for them and the case, followed secondly, by my desire to discuss. I think its important to prioritize, towards everything you do in life. If you don`t, you tend to loose your way. Don`t get me wrong, my life`s not perfect and I don`t want to sound like I`m preaching to people here, I really, really don`t. And I don`t want people to think they need to walk on eggshells when they are around people, because that`s not true either. There`s no need for that! But sometimes, people forget. They get caught up in the moment, and think that they can pull out of people, and hang out of them, till they get an answer they are satisfied with, and it just doesn`t work that way. Destroying people, is not entertainment. Its sick, and you`ve got to be sick to indulge in it, or laugh at it, or want to stand by, and look on, as other people indulge in it! A stand MUST be made against this!!!Its fascism.
What certain people would like to see happen, is people not wanting to come out and talk about it, at all! And its so obvious. But I`m optimistic, I see all of this clearly, I`m not confused about any of this. I m not confused by the details, or the case, or the witnesses, or the spooks, or who`s who, or whatever. And I appeal to anyone else out there who feels the same way, about all of this, to make it known. Shout it from the rooftops if you have too.
And I don`t care what the skeptics think, I`m perfectly capable of thinking skeptically myself. They`ve got nothing to offer me. I don`t need them. I don`t need David Clarke digging into Nick Popes background at the M.O.D, in an attempt to dig the dirt on the man. I mean, what`s he going to do, blackmail the guy?? I don`t need someone like that! Who does?? I`m not like, a lot of other people, that need these people. There`s no one that`s a go-too-guy on good sense, for me. If I want to know something, I go and seek out that knowledge myself. As I said to someone the other night, you never stop learning in this life. Anyone that lets on, to have all the answers, well they are just fooling themselves, and anyone else willing to listen to them.
We`r really lucky, to be able to have the guys come on here at all, to want to talk about it. I mean, having been through everything they have been through. I don`t have to point that out again, right? So why would anyone want to ruin that, by disrespecting the guys and making them not want to come on the forum at all?!?!! You know what I mean? No one has a God Given right to know anything, about what happened to them, if its at their expense, full stop, end of story! You know,... this stuff should be obvious to people, I don`t know if its something about the internet or what, but, people don`t have any respect for other people anymore.
And then if things weren`t already bad enough, you have others out there, who are out to use people for their own benefits. They come along and they want to divide people up into groups, and they encourage it, and you have to ask, what are their motives, I`m not talking about any-thing or any-one in particular, because there are many different kinds, of these people out there, who all have various agendas, and goals, or whatever. And you have to be wise to people who come onto forums whose main goal is to confuse innocent people who are genuinely interested in finding out what happened. You know the type, they`ll come on the forum, let on, that they are your friend, and imply this and that, and come up with crazy theories; ie, the ufo that was a cover story, for the black ops, that the guys were involved in, but they have to keep up the ufo story, cause that`s a ruse....blahsie... blahsie...blah!! You know what I mean, they come up with a whole load of tall tales. I`m not picking any particular one, pick any of them, cut it, and paste it, and that`s your story, whatever! As far as I`m concerned, I see clearly what goes on, and my attitude is, whatever the witnesses say happened, happened. And if it didn`t happen exactly the way they think it happened, then there`s a good reason for that. If they cant remember why there`s this gap or that gap, then there`s a reason for that too! I`ve seen people quote rules of investigation, and then think they know what those rules mean, but usually, what they think those rules mean, is really, their mistaken interpretation of those rules mean, and then they run with it! I back the witnesses. Sure, I can talk about theory, if you like, In fact I like to talk about it, but nothing confuses me, because I see the mistakes other people are making, and I don`t repeat them. The story will come out, if we back the witnesses, and help them do whatever needs to be done, in order to move the case forward, that`s all that there is to it. To me, everything else, is just smoke and mirrors, all of it! I see people on here, and other forums, loosing their heads over this detail, that detail, he says this, he says that, and meanwhile, others are coming up with crazy stuff, like the thing I heard the other day about someone saying Neville`s was being tortured on the tape? I mean, WTF was that all about? Its crazy,.... you know? Where did that come out of? Somebody sure pulled that one out of their hat, Ill tell you! I mean, I`ve seen rabbits come out of hats before, but that was David Copperfield,.... you know? Maybe we should get him, in here, see what he can come out with, ...right? I mean, everyone else has had a go, ..so why not?
Then there`s the other type, the deniers, who misquote, and who take out of context, and who then build houses of cards, based on all of this, upon which they balance mirages, and you end up with this elaborate set up, and which comes tumbling down around them, when its scrutinized in any real way. I mean, is this the best these people can do after all these years,..... you know? Is this all you`ve got?
In my opinion, what should have originally happened back in 1980 was that the witnesses should have been brought in, and checked out medically. This thing, whatever it was, was dangerous. Anything that can do what it could do, is going to be dangerous. Ever heard of Cash/Landrum? In my humble opinion(lol), they should have been brought in and debriefed fully, they should have had their security clearances upped, and they should have been let know, exactly what the hell that thing was! O.k, so there`s a need for national security, whatever, they should have let the people, who were directly affected, in on it! All, of the ones who were affected by it. Of course, had that happened, the rest of us probably wouldn`t know anything about it today, but in my opinion, so what! At least these guys would have been spared all the ***! They are good guys, most of them anyway, and they shouldn`t have had everything that`s happened since, happen to them. They should have been made welcome, not beaten back. I mean, listen to what Colonel Halt said, on the paranormal cafe today, about how his son was treated by the ufo people, and ask yourself; Do these people really deserve to know what happened, considering how they behave themselves? That doesn`t mean I believe that people don`t have a right to know! Of course they have a right to know, but they don`t have a right to stampede the messenger! I mean can you picture the guys with M-16`s coming over Halts back wall? I never even heard about that before, and I`m not surprised, really. I mean, those particular people are probably ashamed of their asses and wouldn`t tell anyone, then again I haven`t read Sky-crash, maybe its in there, I don`t know!
And people are so complacent too. This goes back to Larry`s armchair thing, they don`t want to get up and find the truth for themselves. They wont get up and fight for it, they are too busy fighting each other. There`s always an excuse, and they`ll always make it sound good too. But deep down they know themselves that there`s no excuse. People really need to get up off their asses and start looking at themselves, and saying, o.k, what can I do, to help get this out. As somebody else said, flaming each other wont do it, and killing the messenger wont do it either. You want to know the truth, you`ll have to fight to get to it, other wise, sit back and have another taco, Jacko, because its not fighting to get to you!
l.A.E.G and Y.C.T.T.P, really touched me, the human element to this whole thing is the best part of it. The UFO is such a small part of the story, compared to the human element. That doesn`t mean I`m not interested in the UFO part, I`m very much interested in that part too!
Maybe this has all been said before? Maybe, I missed out on it last time, if it was, or maybe its just my turn to say it, or maybe it just needs to be said once in a while to keep us all on the right track, and heading for where we should be going. To the cynics out there, this isn`t hero worship, its just plain human decency, that`s all. Call me old fashioned! I`ve been called a lot worse!
If it was me in their shoes, and someday I was let in, on what actually happened, by the N.S.A, or whoever. Id probably disappear, and leave the rest of the world wondering where did I go. Over the back wall, and gone, while that lot where all busy trolling over the latest blind to hit the net! Id say to myself, "Well, unfortunately, all they ever did for me, was shoot me down, so why not pee off on them all?", and Id be gone! Off into the sunset like a cowboy in a wild west movie. Addios muchachos!! To the sound track of the theme tune too:-The good, the bad, and the ugly! And maybe, just like Blondie, Id turn my horse around at the last minute, and maybe, just maybe, Id shoot out the rope!

Anyway, lucky enough for you all, that last part is just my own opinion.!
Anyway, having come full circle, that`s it from me...... for now! Thanks for your time. Over and out!


"Its all ours Blondie, all that lovely gold!.....Its all ou`...wha?.."You gotta be joke`in me Blondie, you wouldn`t do that to me,... would you Blond?..." "Its no joke,... its a rope Tucco, now get up there and put your neck in that noose!"...."Well now,seems just like old times!"

[Frank]

If it was a Sat, be it Sov, US or a sat specifically designed for a Star Wars test, and if some part of it was to make it to the ground intact...where would it's re-entry interface had to have taken place in order for it not to plough into Suffolk like a meteorite? Seems a strange place to conduct such a mission...like, make a small miscalculation or over-rate the ability to 'make it so' and oops there goes the nuclear power station or oops how do we explain the crater in the WSA or schit..that poor bugger in Ipswich with the hole in his roof and the sat in bed next to him where his Mrs used to be.

I agree, oOo - bringing down a sat is one thing, but bringing it down intact is another. And the risks involved are huge. So that rules out the sat.

Hoaxes, lighthouses are too absurd to even discuss here in my opinion.

Has the Min Min light angle been crapped over with sufficient expertise that makes it an impossibility or at the least...very unlikely?

Don't know what you mean by that ..?

There is about a 8 min piece on my Hypnosis on you tube which you might want to take a look at. I truly have know Idea why that is there but it is.

That is what made me think of a possible abduction. At the end of this piece, when everything seems normal again, radio contact is restored, and the men are walking back to the base, they do not remember how they got there and therefore are not able to give an ETA. After that Nevels' interview was published and he said an airmen was abducted. An abduction could explain the difference between the memories of Jim and John.

All 3 of us have said it was gone in a blink of a eye! What ever it was lifted up and went back with and was gone that fast with know noise.

That is very interesting!

One more thing to ponder things can be made to look like they disappeared faster than they did!

That is true, but if it is a solid craft like Jim describes it becomes more difficult. Another thing to keep in mind is that high speeds and fast accelerations have been associated with UFO's since the late 40's. Back in 1962 accelerations of 100 g have been measured.

they should have been brought in and debriefed fully, they should have had their security clearances upped, and they should have been let know, exactly what the hell that thing was!

From the stories I have read, this is what actually happened. The witnesses actually were debriefed, even shown footage of UFO's, and were told it was a UFO they witnessed. Maybe nobody was able to tell them exactly what that thing was, simply because nobody knows.

[AgentAppleseed]

That is what made me think of a possible abduction. At the end of this piece, when everything seems normal again, radio contact is restored, and the men are walking back to the base, they do not remember how they got there and therefore are not able to give an ETA. After that Nevels' interview was published and he said an airmen was abducted. An abduction could explain the difference between the memories of Jim and John.

It certainly sounds that way Frank. I remember reading L.A.E.G back when that book came out, and then Y.C.T.T.P. and I always knew, back in those days, that there was going to be a hell of a lot more to come out, mate. I always knew that all of that, was just the tip of the iceberg. Its taken a long time to come out but thats understandable. We are getting there. Dont ever worry about the direction this case is going. As Ive mentioned already, Im optimistic. Lets just say I have an intuition. It will get there my friend! Ill tell you one thing for sure-Its no hoax.

From the stories I have read, this is what actually happened. The witnesses actually were debriefed, even shown footage of UFO's, and were told it was a UFO they witnessed. Maybe nobody was able to tell them exactly what that thing was, simply because nobody knows

Yes, some of the men where. My spiel was just really Ideal world, I know the realities of the situation, with "need to know", and everything else, etc. Its just what I would have liked to see happen.

Somebody, somewhere knows where those things were from. Theres too much tech out there, especially now, for them not to know! Theres tech out there focused on space, all the time.

All of the following is Speculation- Ive often wondered if the object on Halts night, was there looking for the object from Burroughs night. Its interesting to note that out of everyone who was out there, the second night, Burroughs was targeted a second time. Burroughs was directly involved both nights, and then you have the observation that the object was performing a grid search. Of course, it may have been doing something else entirely, but when you fit each piece together it does sound suggestive. It sounds plausible to say that the object may have choosen to interact with borroughs, because he had been in contact with the first object. Out of everyone else out there, why pick him in particular?

From what Ive heard about a certain hypnosis tape, that hasnt been seen at all in public, it kind of sounds like, (and now Im really speculating), they were using Borroughs as an Avatar. Apparently theres a section of tape where the thing speaks directly to the hypnotist through Burroughs?!?

Earlier on, I was listening to the Nevilles interview for a second time, but on Whitley Striebers site. At the end of the interview, Linda talks to Whitley and she says that when Burroughs enters the object, under hypnosis he has a block that he just cant get through. She was talking to a doctor about this particular aspect, and he said that sometimes, when the mind cant understand whats going on around it, it will just shut down and stop recording information. Now think about it, thats serious trauma right there. What was it like, inside that thing, for it to have had that effect? Its stunning, shocking even. Ive seen one of the hypnosis videos on youtube. It seems someone recorded it on a cameraphone when it was shown at one of Lindas lectures. Its compelling stuff. Its emotionally powerful stuff. Whatever they bumped into out there, was serious stuff. Its plain to see. I dont think those videos were meant for public consumption, another example of someone having their privacy invaded.