the hart of the matter !

[John Burroughs]

Go to my face book page or Earth Files and let me know what you think! Chris jumped in that truck yelling like a little girl! Where is it what happened I guess he stooped fooling around at that point!!

[Frank]

Hope you guys are not saying this to 'get him back' - it will only bring you more trouble ..

[John Burroughs]

Frank
Guess what I would not say it if it didn't happen! Its interesting that he won't come on here and face the music but keeps in touch with Ian. If you think about it on the tape its says we have Airmen Burroughs and 2 other personal requesting to come out to your location. That was me Armold and one other person. Read what he posted in 97 and the fact he is stating that there was no equipment out there. He was in the staging area where the trucks and light all's were when what I was talking about happened. He says England states nothing happened but he is on the Halt tape and it sure sounds like something was going on!You see I have no reason to lie it happened. Ian have him jump in I'm waiting!!!

[John Burroughs]

Larry
Who told you about that part of the incident?

[Frank]

What is driving him to lie about it?

Chris doesn't seem to be the kind of guy who's afraid of telling the truth.

[John Burroughs]

Does what he have to say in 97 add up? And lets see if you talk about something strange going on then what happens. The alien's are coming the alien's are coming. Look at Conrad statement that Clarke put out did he say he felt like we were lying or Miss identified something. He stated at the end of the day he is not sure what happened to us even used the word ET. Buren won't talk about the Radar contact why is that! Something happened to us out there which they can't explain but they don't want it for one second to be labeled a alien encounter!!! They don't want to own up that there was a investigation. Why did General Gabriel come in and collect everything that happened. That came out in the Mod documents! Why did Buren even right a statement after he came back off leave. If we screwed up it sure would not read the way it did! Where did it say we misidentified something? He says OPS asked for it not true the command did. If it was a Non-Event that would not have happened. I'm sure Several people will jump in but the interesting thing is they have no Idea how the Air Force works! Statements are not taken unless there is a investigation going on. Skip says what we have stated does not follow what the investigation said happened! What Investigation then, what was found, who was talked to, what agency conducted it. Why did all of the reports disappear? Why the memo? How come Williams states he didn't know anything about the memo? But he did say in Bruni book she clearly showed this was a UFO event not Alien but UFO!

[Frank]

Something happened to us out there which they can't explain

Yes, I have no trouble with that. The red/orange light you draw in your witness statement is pretty weird. It moves and when it sits in one place, an orange/red cone of light comes out with small blue balls swirling in/around it. The area beneath this cone is illuminated with a white light. I can't explain it. One thing is certain: Size, movement, color, behavior – none of these match the lighthouse light.

It's just that when I look at the story Chris is telling - it contains a lot of clues that is actually was the night of december 26/27.
And when I look at the way he comes in on facebook it is clear he does not believe you.
If I add the two it sounds logical - he never was a witness but thinks he was.

But now you state he was there on the third night, witnessed a lot of what happened, and is not telling the truth about it. This sounds unlikely to me, but your memories seem to be as clear as those of Chris...

[John Burroughs]

Question He states he went out there on the first night and saw nothing even made fun of it! He even states he didn't like me or want to be around me. Yet there he is on a cold Sat night out in the woods with me! Why if he felt it was a joke would he go out there on a night off. He did snap some pictures from the staging area! Why would you be taking pictures if nothing was there. Film was not cheep back then or getting it developed. Why would you even turn the film in??? Do you take pictures of nothing?? Why would you even be taking pictures in the first place? If you thought it was the light house would you not take a picture of that?

[Frank]

Good questions that only he can answer.
Hopefully Ian can persuade him to participate here.

He does seem to water the events down a bit:

"I remember the call was rather late in the shift and I'm certain the decision to call the local constabulary was one that was made late in the morning and with hesitation. You see no one was particularly eager to call the local police and ask silly questions about UFO's. However one also must cover all the bases so we made the decisions to call and ask if they had any reports of aircraft accidents or similar phenomenon. I'm quite certain the word UFO wasn't a part of the conversation."

Compare that last statement to the entry in the Suffolk Police log (time stamped 26/12/80/04:11):
“WE HAVE A SIGHTING OF SOME UNUSUAL LIGHTS IN THE SKY. HAVE SENT SOME UNARMED TROUPS TO INVESTIGATE. WE ARE TERMING IT AS A U.F.O. AT PRESENT”

UFO ... lights in the sky ... not the kind of words you would expect when making inquiries about a possible aircraft crash ..

And then he says this:

"In the morning [ of December 26 ] several of us were asked if we would return to the area to point out the depressions to some folks who I believe were from environmental health. They did have some type of instrument for detecting radiation and I believe they did detect some measure of radiation, however I don't think it was a significant amount."

So someone ordered several of you back to the area to have the landing marks investigated by environmental health in the morning. Quite an investigation for a ‘non-event’ that only consisted of ‘strange lights’. And why did someone think these marks may have health consequences anyway?

[John Burroughs]

H mm Buren downed aircraft Armold UFO. I never called it in as a UFO and why would Buren send us out there without some kind of confirmation? Why not notified the Local authorities and stand by to see what they find out! After all it was off base what was the threat to our resources? And the next interesting thing Buren was at CSC which was handling the incident. If there calling it a downed aircraft why is LE calling it in as a UFO? And again would the local fire department and our fire department not be notified if there was a possibility of a downed aircraft? After all that was not my call but the 2 NCO on scene Pennistons and Steffens. And as Buren said he was running the show! And why did he not take a statement from Steffens? I know he didnot go out into the Forrest but he was the first one to see it and if it was a Non-Event why would he have me call it in after all he was in charge???? Its funny everybody wants to jump on our butt and grill us to death but Armold and Buren get a free pass!! And Ian does not have to show up on the 28th and face the music! Why would we come over if were lying???

[Frank]

Yes, it seems the local authorities were left out as much as possible.

They were contacted very late (at 04:11) - the events were going on for some time already (or were even finished).

And the second call to the Suffolk police (in the morning of december 26, at 10:30) is also interesting:

"WE HAVE A CALL FROM THE LE AT BENTWATERS IN REFERENCE TO THE UFO REPORTED LAST NIGHT. WE HAVE FOUND A PLACE WHERE A CRAFT OF SOME SORT SEEMS TO HAVE LANDED."
The location information provided:
"APPROX. 2 MILES EAST OF THE EAST GATE AT BENTWATERS."
Again, in hand written notes: "2 MILES DUE EAST OF THE EAST GATE."

So the Suffolk police were directed to landing marks approximately two miles due East from East gate. This is way beyond the farmer’s field - the edge of the forest at the first farmer's field is much less than a mile away (see Google Maps – 2 miles is over 10.000 feet).

That makes me wonder: Was the Suffolk police directed to the actual landing site?

[John Burroughs]

Also there appears to be a investigation going on does there not! Why else would they call and ask them to come back out? It was not Jim or I or even Halt behind that! If we were mistaken or confused why would they call them back out? Why would they call it a craft! The time in there log for the first night is while we were out there but Buren want's you to believe we were only gone less than a hour! Is it possible to have everything take place from beginning to end to include going out and back in less than a hour? The Ops officer was out there do you think he would be there if we were mistaken or confused? Why won't Buren talk about the last part in his statement about other siteings or what the others officers had to say? Why did Conrad not say we were mistaken or confused. The only real thing he wanted to stress was he didn't see anything! Sound familiar!!

[Frank]

Yep, there was a lot more going on than just some 'SP's goofing around'. And they did call it a craft, both in the Suffolk police log and in Halt's memo.

The time in there log for the first night is while we were out there but Buren want's you to believe we were only gone less than a hour! Is it possible to have everything take place from beginning to end to include going out and back in less than a hour?

That is probably due to the fact that almost all witness statements (including yours) plus Halt's memo state that you first saw these lights and called them in around 03:00.
I often wondered how accurate that time is. Do you remember why you put 03:00 in your witness statement? Was it something like 'it went on during the night so let's pick 03:00', were you ordered to, was it based on your own accurate memories, ...?

[Gordy]

Could it be that the discrepancy in John and Jim's testimony relates to what can and cannot be seen interdimensionally? With spirit sightings and such for instance, you'll often have one person swearing black and blue that they saw a figure as clear as crystal appear in front of them and the person right next to them swearing that they saw nothing of the sort and that perhaps they are on crack. Those that might have a camera on hand and take some well-timed snape either have nothing come out or sometimes if they're lucky a mist or fog where there eyes clearly saw a fully-formed virtually realistic apparation. Could it be that some have the sensitivity to be able to see more of the frequency spectrum? Animals are assumedly able to see more than what we can and there are always reported cases of animals freaking out during spirit visitations -- look also at what happened at Rendlesham when the animals went ballistic. Was Jim perhaps simply able to see more because he has the ability to? Could there have been a physcial craft that others simply were not able to see and they instead just saw perhaps an outline, or lights, or some kind of unclear morphing "thing"?

.

Interesting. During the 1950's my grandfather excavated Borley Rectory. That place is legendary in the realms of haunted houses. There is still something about that place just not right. The vicar of the church went completly insane and used to preach to an empty church on Sunday mornings as none of the villagers would go near the place. Anyway, the thing is all the believers in spirits saw nothing at all, they conducted seances (none of which have never been published but I have the original typed manuscripts). My grandfather and others did all the walks were the spirits were said to appear, midnight, alone or in pairs but never saw anything. My grandmother on the other hand, well she stood beside the Ford Popular with her friends minding her own business and asked if anyone else saw the person walk by, of coarse only she saw it. She was, rest her sole, one of the most level headed people I knew, happy with the cards she was dealt in life. I am convinced select few are more susceptable to seeing or sensing spirits, be it visiually or scent or other ways. I'm sure animals can sense things we can't. I'm not for a minute saying what the boys of the 81st saw in Dec 80 were spirits.

[John Burroughs]

Ok, it started at around 3 and was not over until around 5. Lets go over a few things! Buren orders us out into the woods based on what is being reported by his NCO in charge that something is going on off base. Why go off base if its only lights? Claims were confused and mistaken. Well lets see forget about the second night at this pointe less focus on the 3rd night. Armold claims that some people just went out to hang out. Yet England shows up at a wing party which had Williams Conrad and Zickler at it. By now don't you think if we were confused or it was the lighthouse they would have figured it out. After all they did call the British police back out the next day. Now England shows up and say's its back H mm why if we were confused would he show back up and say its back. Then on the base leadership orders that would be Williams and Conrad they send a team back into the woods! H mm again Jim and I were just mistaken by what we saw. Now at first Conrad when contacted by Omni years ago acts like he had no Idea what was going on out there. But later admits he was on the radio the whole time but didn't see anything. Why would he allow Halt to be off base for several hours and involve on duty security personal if nothing was going on? Why if the investigation that was going on showed nothing would Halts team go back out there? Why would you call the British police back out a second time if nothing happened? Why don't the bunkers want to talk about any of this! Jim and I were not confused or misidentified something. We didn't encounter the lighthouse but we did encounter something of unknown orgin! The problem is our Chicken Shit command to include Buren are afraid to be tied to something that has the word ET or Alien on it! But it is interesting Conrad did bring up the word ET!!! And last but not least Williams states I can neither confirm or deny the incident happened! They were good men doing there jobs! Why did he not just say we MIS Identified lights in the woods. The one thing he did say was it has been shown to be a true UFO event....

[Frank]

Not really a 'non-event' if you look at the whole picture ...

It started at 03:00 - so still no way to match this with the times in Jim's notebook .. Well, I hope Jim has a good solution for that on the 28th.

It's late in the evening here so I'll call it a day!

The vicar of the church (...) used to preach to an empty church on Sunday mornings

I'm afraid he's not the only one these days, Gordy..

I am convinced select few are more susceptable to seeing or sensing spirits

Who knows? Some people think we know everything but we still have a lot to find out.

[ncf1]

John - William's behaviour is odd to say the least isn't it.. in doco's it's as if he wants to say something but has to keep it in for some reason or another. To me, his sitting-on-the-fence attitude towards it all actually says there might be more to it than he's willing to admit. Just so, so many variables in this case that just cant be discounted in my opinion. Bruni felt WIlliams perhaps knew more also.

Gordy hey funny you mention Borley Rectory, I just got a book on the life of Harry Price two days ago, thought I'd get it as a gift for my sister as she has an interest in the Borley Rectory story!

It's said that seances, witchcraft and the like can open up portals to other dimensions. The Rendlesham area is known for all kinds of weird happenings. I have no idea at all if any of it could be true but there are links here and there that make things interesting, makes for at least a possibility, and I think every possibility needs to be looks at as thoroughly as possible.

[Gordy]

I understand alot of what Harry Price wrote about ie poltergeist activity was admitted to be hoax in the end. However, the original spirits witnessed by the Reverend Bull and subsequent vicars was far from being a hoax. Go visit the village you will see what I mean. There's something about that place.

[ncf1]

I've not read about Harry Price, nor know a lot actually about it, just that he was tied to the Borley case. And I have heard that things still go on there.

[Gordy]

I took my daughter there a few years ago when she was about 3. She would'nt walk anywhere, I had to carry her until we left. Then I got a flat tyre right ouside where the Rectory stood, the tyre was not repairable because the nail went through the sidewall, I get a new tyre and it gets mounted the wrong way. I have not been back since.