Who did Halt have with him?

[Robert McLean]

John's input on this would be greatly appreciated!

Col. Halt has not been entirely forthcoming about who was with him on his expedition to investigate the landing site. This may be because individuals have asked him not to reveal their identities or for some other reason.

Halt had with him a 'team of specialists' and it's known these included:

Lieutenant Bruce Englund
Sergeant Monroe Nevels, who operated the radiation meter
Master Sergeant Robert F (Bobby) Ball

Halt has said on more than one occasion that he was out with “four or five” other individuals. See for example his interview in “Left at East Gate” page 365:

Halt: ... My recollections fit very closely in with all the people, the four or five other people that were with me that night, and I’ve had the opportunity through the years to talk with them. In fact, Bobby Ball, you remember him?

Warren: Absolutely.

Halt: I talked with him when we did the NBC thing, I talked with Verrano [sic] at great length, and everything all fits together. ...

Therefore, it is possible that Captain Mike Verano was also with Halt’s party. Certainly, there was another officer with Col Halt, and at one point he speaks into the radio refusing permission for John Burroughs to come out to the landing site. This person seemed to feel no need to consult Col Halt on the point, and never refers to the (then) Lt Col Halt as "sir". Was this officer Capt Verano, or even a more senior officer?

In “Left at East Gate” p 217/218, reference is made to comments made by Col Halt on a cassette tape sent to an American researcher. Col Halt says, somewhat ambiguously, that “contact was actually made with myself and Col Ted Conrad”. Col Conrad’s nick name was “Tex” as he was from Texas. Could Col Conrad have been with Halt?

Col Halt referred to this officer in his presentation at St George’s Community College in August 1997. In response to a question about the number of others who witnessed the events, Col Halt states “There were five that, when I went out, there were five people with me. The rest stayed back, stayed back behind the line, and I know the line was held, because, the boss, so to speak, was with me, and the, the cops wouldn’t have gone across that line.” Earlier in the presentation, Col Halt refers both to Col Conrad and General Williams, as his “boss”.

Another possibility is that the officer was Col William E Sawyer, who was the base Director of Personnel.

Others who may have been with the party include Sergeant Frail and Sergeant Adrian Bustinza. Georgina Bruni believed these names can be heard on the tape master copy, and she was probably right regarding Sgt Bustinza'n name, but it is not clear from the tape if he was with Halt, or only in radio communication with Halt's team.

Another person who claimed to have been with Halt was Msgt Chris Armold.

The numer of different voices on the Halt tape seems to increase towards the end. It is possible that other joined up with Halt towards the end, and John Burroughs has said here that he did manage to do this.

John, from your recollection, can you rule in - or rule out - any of the following names as having been with Col Halt that night, or can you tell us who else was with Halt besides Ball, Englund and Nevels. Was another Col with Halt, even if you are not sure who, or was Halt defintiely the most senior officer there? Possible names are:

Sgt Adrian Bustinza
Sgt Frail
MSgt Chris Armold
Captain Mike Verano
Col William E Sawyer
Col Ted (Tex) Conrad
Col William E Sawyer

[pupil88]

Hi McLean,

Bustinza was with the party initially, but Halt may have told him to get another light-all. Bustinza was heard on the radio at times. Major Ziegler may have there but his voice isn't on the tape. Since he was the head of the security police, I'd be surprised if he wasn't there.

[John Burroughs]

Halt was the highest ranking when i got out there. England was the highest SP Ziegler never came out on anything. Druery OPS officer was not out there when I was there. Armold was a Airmen like me and did not meet up with Halts party he stayed with the Lightalls thats as far as he got. Bustina was with Halts party and went with me when I ran towards it. MSgt Gulius also might have been out there. Halts boss would have been Coonrad because he was the Base commander. Williams was Wing which was flight operation and he was also had final say on everthing and none of them were out there when I got there. Warren could tell you if anybody on your list was there at the very beggining....

[Robert McLean]

Halt was the highest ranking when i got out there. England was the highest SP Ziegler never came out on anything. Druery OPS officer was not out there when I was there. Armold was a Airmen like me and did not meet up with Halts party he stayed with the Lightalls thats as far as he got. Bustina was with Halts party and went with me when I ran towards it. MSgt Gulius also might have been out there. Halts boss would have been Coonrad because he was the Base commander. Williams was Wing which was flight operation and he was also had final say on everthing and none of them were out there when I got there. Warren could tell you if anybody on your list was there at the very beggining....

Thanks very much for that information John. If Larry Warren has any more information, that would be most welcome, but my understanding is that Larry was in the group that was further back. There has never been, as far as I know, much testimony from others who were in that 'perimeter' group back at the Lightalls. Do you know if these Lightalls were back at the main access road (the one that runs north/south and which interescts the road to East Gate) or were the Lightalls brought further forward into the forest?

You say that Bustina went with you when you ran towards Halt's party. Did you the two of you go off together at that point, or did you stay together with Halt's group?

[John Burroughs]

No Bustina was with Halts party when I ment up with them and he and I then went towards what ever it was!!! The lightalls were in a clearing.

[Robert McLean]

No Bustina was with Halts party when I ment up with them and he and I then went towards what ever it was!!! The lightalls were in a clearing.

Thanks very much for that information.

I believe that the lightalls you used back then were NF2 lightalls. I can't find any photos of these, but could I ask if these something like the lightall shown on this webpage

http://www.3af.usafe.af.mil/photos/index.asp?page=3

Click on the photo of the lightall to enlarge it. It's called a FL-1D lightall. It's huge. I have seen units similar to this used in England to provide lighting on motorways when they are doing repairs at night. Like any portable gasoline or diesel powered generator, they are noisy - but they certainly light up a big area!

Everyone seems to have overlooked the fact that there is no noise of a lightall's gasoline powered generator (an internal combustine engine!) to be heard on the Halt tape, just a hum or a whine from what I assume was a hand-held Coleman type lamp - the sort that has a gas mantle. So either the lightalls never worked that evening, or they were too far away for the noise to be picked up by the tape. Can you remember if they ever did get the lightalls working?

In one presentation he gave, Col Halt described the lightalls. He said:

"Lightalls are motor generators, on trailers. They’re small gasoline engines, something a little larger than a lawn mower engine, directly coupled to a generator, with two big adjustable lights on top. You can bathe an area with light from them. We use them for security; we use them for maintenance people to work at night, any time we need a lot of illumination, we use them. The Security Police had about a dozen assigned directly to them."

It would be quite a challenge hauling something like that out into the middle of Rendlesham forest. It seems to me it would be ok towing a lightall and its trailer down some of the logging roads, but getting it off road and out into the trees - in the dark, at night, in the winter -would not be easy, to say the least!

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I imagine the lightalls must have been set up in a clearing that was next to or near one of the logging access roads.

The Halt tape starts off with:

HALT: "150 feet or more from the initial, or I should say suspected, impact point. Having a little difficulty; can't get the light-all to work. There seems to be some kind of mechanical problem. Let's send back and get another light-all."

According to the Halt tape, it seems then that the lightalls were set up "150 feet or more" from the "suspected impact point", which was the landing site he investigated.

I think that everyone has always agreed that the landing site wasn't right next to one of the logging access roads, so I would assume from this that the lightall was set up as near as they could get it to the landing site - and as you say, in a clearing. I would guess that the lightalls were set up either right next to or not too far off the logging road and so the clearing must therefore have been right next to or near the logging road. Would this be right?

There were a lot of people out in the forest that night, according to Halt, 30 to 40. This is what he said in another presentation he made:

"So I said to ‘em ‘Let’s keep all these people back. We don’t need the publicity. We, we’re kind of trespassin’ if you will. This is the Queen’s forest – sort of like a National Forest here. And there’s a lot of private property around here. We don’t want to cause a lot of concern. We don’t want to get people upset. They’re going to wonder what we’re doing stomping around out here in the woods. So he said ‘OK’.

Probably 30 or 40 people, total. Three or four light-alls. The light-alls were acting up. They wouldn’t run right. They were flickering off and on. I could hear comments ‘He didn’t refuel them’ and somebody else said ‘Yes, I did refuel them. I took them down to the motor pool before we brought them out.’."

I'm trying to visualize what the scene must have looked like. The landing site was in amongst the trees, as shown in the photos Ray Gulyas took, "150 feet or more" from the lightalls. The lightalls were in a clearing which was probably next to, or at least near, one of the logging access roads. The lightalls must have been set up to shine across the clearing and into the trees on the other side of the clearing where the landing site was. There couldn't have been too many trees in the way of the light from the lightalls otherwise there would be too many shadows cast by the trees for the lightalls to have been any use at the landing site. So I would guess that the clearing took up most of that distance of "150 feet or more" referred to by Halt. Therefore, I would expect that the clearing was, very roughly, up to about 150 feet across and that the landing site (as viewed from where the lightalls were set up) was in some trees a short distance beyond the far side of the clearing.

John, have I got this right, or how would you describe the scene?

There were probably also quite a few people left back at the lightalls, not allowed to join Halt's team of specialists, but who would have had a clear view of what Halt's party was up to while they investigated the landing site with the geiger counter and the starlight scope. John, would this be right?

John, I'm sorry to ask so many questions at once, but these basic details of the scene that night have never been clarified before.

[robert]

''There were a lot of people out in the forest that night, according to Halt, 30 to 40.''

Hi Robert Mc,

Did Halt say whether they were all USAF or did he say why there were that many out there?

Cheers

Robert

[Robert McLean]

''There were a lot of people out in the forest that night, according to Halt, 30 to 40.''

Did Halt say whether they were all USAF or did he say why there were that many out there?

I could be wrong, but I don’t think there is any testimony on this. I think it would be surprising if there were any UK civilians mingling with the Security Police and other USAF personnel, unless they were family members. It would be interesting if John could say anything about this, but he wasn’t there in the early part of evening, and numbers may have dropped off as the night wore on.

[Observer]

The number of people out in the forest is at best conjecture. We accept that there were parties of people which in total may have been 20, 30, 40 or whatever. To have this number out there can only mean they were doing a sweep search of the area. So what were they looking for? My guess is the possibility of scattered debris. No body has checked to see if the Base fire service attended which would have been an obvious thing to do. Well Penniston initially thought it was an aircrash so the fire service is the first to attend! Come on guys, there are huge holes in this mystery.
I was more interested if any Brits were out there from British authorities, such as MOD, scientists, RAF etc. rather than just civilian Brits.

I think some thing came down in that forest vertically, possibly by parachute prior to the 3 nights in question and it arrived there more by accident than intention. The rest was just containment.

Obs

[robert]

Yes I agree who it is, is at best, conjecture. but we have two guys who can tell us roughly the number and also if they were all known to them as USAF personnel.

If we get that information it will gives us a liitle more insight.


As you say Obs if it were a crash where were the base fire rescue, the Space recovery guys or the local Fire tenders?

In that none of these seem to be present can we rule out crashed craft, missiles, planes etc.

If they were all security why did they need that many if it were just lights, especially on Halts night, after the first incident with JB?

Holes and no connections yes but perhaps our witnesses remember a bit more detail of who they saw in the way of type of personnel.

Also the total time involved on the two nights. Second night duration 7 hours possibly, the first night duration how long from start to finish?

Robert

[John Burroughs]

I dont beleive there were ever 30-40 people in the forrest. There were over 40 people on duty and were listening to the radio traffic. As far as the first night no fire or anybody else was aclled out because we didnot find a crash site. Remember it was off base and we needed to see what it was before we sent out everybody. Also on halts night the 3rd night again nothing had crashed IE no Fire personal. First night went on from around 3 to about 5. Second night I got out there at about 1030 or so and came in around 4. There were never any British out there durning the efent that I saw...

[Observer]

Thanks John
Now we have a clearer picture to numbers and who wasn't involved.
Obs

[Robert McLean]

Second night I got out there at about 1030 or so and came in around 4.

John - what did you do in the woods for 5 and 1/2 hours ?

John's time frame pretty much overlaps with the times mentioned on the Halt tape which runs from about 1 am to about 4 am. John, do you think Halt was in the forest already by 1030 or did he arrive after you?

Regarding the 5 and 1/2 hours John says he was out there, consider the following . . .

Halt described to Brenda Butler the view he had when he was in "the second farmer's field", when one of the lights in the sky appeared to move towards them from the south and beam down a thin beam of light. According to Brenda, Halt said he was on a hill and could see a river running past the hill out towards the sea. Halt said the UFO followed the line of the river, so the river ran to the south towards the sea. I was the one who alerted Georgina Bruni to this information, and Georgina then interviewed Brenda to get the story from her first hand, and included this information in the updated paperback version of You Can't Tell the People.

Halt also believed it was the same vantage point reached by BP&C the first night, although he has never said why he believes this was so. John, if you were with Halt there, then perhaps you told him, and it would be useful to know if this was the case.

From Halt's description, Brenda thought this vantage point must be Burrow Hill, and I agree it is the only location that matches Halt's description. Here's what it looks like from on top of the hill, looking south. Butley River runs past the hill, south towards the sea, which can just be seen on the horizon:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3188/2714782675_b64b0606e1_b.jpg

This hill is a full 2 and 1/2 km from the forest. The distance is also a good match to the "2 miles" distance mentioned in both John Burrough's and Ed Cabansag's witness statements, so Halt may very well be right that he ended up at the same vantage point as BC&P. Here's a section of an OS map which shows the eastern edge of the forest (East Gate if well off the left hand side!) and on the right hand side you can see Burrow Hill and part of the river that runs right next to the Hill, off to the south and towards the sea:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2223/2641758904_fcccf43b34_b.jpg

Assuming John was near where Halt ended up when Halt saw the UFO beam down the light, then he was probably on Burrow Hill both the first and third nights. I would invite anyone to run/walk, as John says he did on the third night, all the way from East Gate to Burrow Hill and back (that's an 11 km round trip), in the dark, and see how much time they have left over from 5 and 1/2 hours! It is not an excessive amount of time to do what John says he did.

However, there is only Halt's description to Brenda Butler of his view of how the UFO appeared to follow the line of the river, to identify his "second farmer's field" as being Burrow Hill. There is no other evidence that this is where BP&C ended up on the first night, or that this is where Halt and his team ended up on the third night.

The area all around Burrow Hill is quite flat, and the hill is not very high but has a definite climb of about 15 m, and a has a large flat area on top. From Capel St Andrew, the hill is reached by a long gravel driveway, which is also a public footpath, shown in dashed green on the map.

John, from Halt's description of the hill and river, and from the photo and map, do you have any recollections that would either support or contradict Halt's description of the hill which he says was the farthest point both he and you reached on your respective nights?

[John Burroughs]

It was at night both times I was out there so I am not sure. I do know I ment Halt on the third night quite abit away from the Lightalls. I never told him that was where we were at but maybe Penniston did. I wish I could help but I really need to be there and walk through it to really know!

[robert]

Thanks for helping out John,

You have been a real big help. It makes a big difference to have some clear insight for a change and not shooting arrows in the dark!

Just one question on JP and I know it may be something you can't answer but JP mentioned at some stage in his interviews, BBC 2004/2005 that he saw a crashed aircraft because it was 'on fire'. He was the told by Bud that 'it didn't crash it landed'.

You say that it was 'As far as the first night no fire or anybody else was aclled out because we did not find a crash site.'

I presume you and JP must have had a different perspective or JP's recollection was a recall after his hypnosis.

I know it's very difficult to comment on but the fact there was no rescue gear out there would indicate that, as you say, there was no crash.

If JP was seeing this why would he think it looked like a crash. Because the lights you saw looked like a crashed craft on fire?

I don't suppose you heard him say this, but I am interested in where he was when he was seeing and saying this.

Was he with you all, or just some of that first night John?

[larry warren]

i dont think chris armold was out at all, i knew him, i
think he called the woodbridge pd, for the base. however he has spent the last 28 years making fun of all
the cops that did see stuff, thus to me hes a waster!.
John B was mentioned yesterday in the SUN newspaper, In the UK!
as for me seeing halt , i think he was the guy that englund hooked up with in the clearing, ie lightalls ect.
he had glasses on , and years later got uptight with me when i asked if he wore them!
i was never with his groupe except diferent members at diffrent times,
i was on foot in the woods , field for about 2 hrs total, but time recal is and always been weird in this.
i hope John can get the chance to rewalk the walk,and i stand ready to help, as do others im sure,
but for his sake if and when i hope people dont make it a circus for the man!
also i have people that can insure that john s return is safe , private, and secure, as it can be nothing less.
it is a hard thing,to relive and is more than anything a personel matter.
word of the day , respect!!!!!!!
welcom Peter Robbins!

[robert]

i dont think chris armold was out at all, i knew him, i
think he called the woodbridge pd, for the base. however he has spent the last 28 years making fun of all
the cops that did see stuff, thus to me hes a waster!.
John B was mentioned yesterday in the SUN newspaper, In the UK!
as for me seeing halt , i think he was the guy that englund hooked up with in the clearing, ie lightalls ect.
he had glasses on , and years later got uptight with me when i asked if he wore them!
i was never with his groupe except diferent members at diffrent times,
i was on foot in the woods , field for about 2 hrs total, but time recal is and always been weird in this.
i hope John can get the chance to rewalk the walk,and i stand ready to help, as do others im sure,
but for his sake if and when i hope people dont make it a circus for the man!
also i have people that can insure that john s return is safe , private, and secure, as it can be nothing less.
it is a hard thing,to relive and is more than anything a personel matter.
word of the day , respect!!!!!!!
welcom Peter Robbins!

Presume you were out there earlyish and left 11.30?

If JB is going to RF I suggest you just PM the members you are comfortable with and try and keep a lid on it Larry.

Wouldn't be a good idea to put it here on the web!

Thanks again Larry and as you say Welcome Peter Robbins.

Cheers

Robert

[Robert McLean]

It was at night both times I was out there so I am not sure. I do know I ment Halt on the third night quite abit away from the Lightalls. I never told him that was where we were at but maybe Penniston did. I wish I could help but I really need to be there and walk through it to really know!

I know from personal experience how difficult it can be to remember details of places or routes taken, and this is now such a long time ago. I really hope that you can make it out here sometime and shed some light on these issues.

From my experience, I think it is easier to remember directions rather than distances traveled. That first night, when you, Penniston and Cabansag left the parked patrol car and headed out on foot towards the coloured flashing lights you could see, do you remeber if you continued in the direction of the forest road you had been on (heading east), or if you were heading off at an angle to the left or right?

[John Burroughs]

I can't tell you for sure because we were drawen towards the light and I did not pay attention to how we got there.