Rendlesham Forest Incident - Radiation Readings June 2010

General discussion about the Rendlesham forest incident

Rendlesham Forest Incident - Radiation Readings June 2010

Postby Storm » Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:50 am

Hi - well first let me say sorry for the length of this post but obviously it cant be explained quickly and nor can you avoid giving everyone the same opportunity to examine the info so you have to give an explanation of radiation although it only need a basic explanation.

Could any questions be PM'd and I will respond as quickly as possible.

Radiation Readings Rendlesham Forest 28 December 1980 – C J Pearson


Main types of radiation: Alpha, Beta, Gamma.

Alpha: Travels a couple of feet in air and is stopped by skin or paper
Beta: Travels a few meters in air and is stopped by aluminium, Perspex
Gamma: Travels hundreds of meters in air and is stopped by concrete, lead

Gamma is slowed down by water and anything that has this property is known as a moderator. In a reactor the moderator is water.

Radiation is in itself a form of energy and depending on the type depends on its power. Gamma is the most powerful and Alpha is the weakest. Radiation is caused by the forceful removal or addition of parts of an atom. This makes the atom unstable. It vibrates in an unstable fashion and this causes energy waves to be given off. This is known as radioactivity and radioactive decay. The atom tries to become stable again, usually by losing the extra bits it has picked up. These it gives off at high speed, sometimes further ripping atoms to bits in its path. If it comes into contact with the body in Alpha – externally nothing happens, unless some enters the body in which case the tough outer layer of skin on a human is not there. The soft innards become damaged and illness begins. In Beta radiation if it hits the skin it can, depending on its energy, cause Beta burns. It’s like heavy sunburn. Gamma passes straight through the body, only slowing a small amount because we are mostly water. This moderates the speed of the Gamma wave and gives its energy up as heat, ionising as it goes. Gamma radiation is so powerful it can further disrupt other molecules as it passes, and then causes them to become unstable and then also radioactive. As the atom tries to become stable it decays. When it has lost half of its radioactivity this is known as one half-life. Each radioactive element (isotope) has a different half life. Some are as small as 7 second’s, others like Uranium 238 have a half-life of billions of years. In Chernobyl and Hiroshima the doses of radiation were so high it was impossible to measure accurately. The victims dose was estimated by taking blood samples from the victims. These samples were then measured for radioactivity of the sodium (a metal) in their blood. From this an exposure level at time of explosion was estimated by counting the half-lives the sodium went through until it had decayed away to nil radioactivity.

Radiation Meter Used:

The meter used was a AN/PDR-27 but it also had a following model letter. I think it was an F but this is not certain. The model numbers ran from I think- A through T.
These were, despite previous reports, accurate measuring devices. The reason for this was that unlike many meters of the type, this one had two GM tubes. A GM tube is like a strip light bulb. It has a charge on the outside and a wire running through the middle, which is charged in the opposite pole. The tube is sealed and is filled with a gas. This is called a quenching gas. When a radioactive particle passes through the tube at high speed it causes ionisation in the tube, which causes a spike in energy. This changes the polarity of the particles in the gas and they are drawn to the wire in the middle. This effect’s the resistance of the wire and a voltage change is detected in the current. This is what is read on the dial. The gas then resists change and quenches the reactions. This is what happens in layman’s terms. The more radiation the more the voltage changes and the more the needle deflects. Change the scale and you change the voltage change detectable. The AN/PDR-27 has two GM tubes, one for very low, to low, measurement and one for medium to high readings. The medium to high tube is in the main body of the meter. The low range one is in the silver probe. The tube in the body is for high levels of gamma radiation measurement. The body is made from cast aluminium and so only gamma can pass through the body of the meter. The probe end is open to air usually. The probe end has a sliding sheet of metal which, when in place will ensure that any beta radiation is stopped, therefore only gamma will be measured. Remove the metal sheet and both beta and gamma can be detected. There is one odd thing about this meter. When in very high areas of gamma radiation the meter can become compromised and the meter reads very low readings. This meter was used for detection of very low to very high radiation readings in an area and was also used to measure radiation exposure casualty victims and. This would normally be in the form of radiation from contamination on the casualty. This meter gave measurement in millroentgen/phr ( milliroentgens per hour). Because it was designed to measure gamma exclusively in the high ranges as well as the low ranges an alternative unit is the millrem. Millirems and milliroentgens are interchangeable when measuring exclusively for gamma radiation. The international unit of radiation now is the Sievert. Sieverts are further split up into millisievrts and further into microsieverts written as microsieverts per hour = uSv/hr.

Designation of Radiation Areas and their respective limits:

Uncontrolled radiation area - less than 2.5uSv/hr
Supervised Radiation area - 2.5uSv/hr to 7.5uSv/hr
Controlled radiation area - 7.5uSv/hr or more

I stress this is brief description of radiation. The idea is to give a brief description to enable further understanding of events by everyone, not just those familiar with radiation safety practice. For those who wish to delve further there is IRR’s 1999. Which are available from the internet.

Halt’s tape – Radiation Readings Dec 28 1980.

The radiation readings have created perhaps the biggest argument over the years. Were they low or high? This is a difficult question to answer due to the fact that we have only a verbal representation of these readings. Because of this, it is important to be able to plot these on the meter used and then work out what the readings were in modern day units. Once this is done we can say what they mean.

Image


This is the meter’s lowest scale. It reads from 0 to 0.5 milliroentgens per hour. This is further divided up into smaller markings on the scale above the blue measure, into 50 smaller markings.

Now as per several websites and as per the Halt memo the readings on the night were recorded as 0.07 milliroentgens per hour. Now it is important that this is plotted on the scale so that we can see what it would look like. This next picture is the common assumption of where the needle was shown in red:

Image


The actual verbal reading given was 7 tenths on the point five scale. As this was taken from the recording live at the scene as it were, it is considered more valid than the readings later written. Because 7 tenths written as a decimal is 0.7. Not 0.07 which is 7 hundredths. This is the system where in the number 123.45 is represented as, 1(hundreds), 2 (tens), 3(units) decimal, 4(tenths), 5(hundredths) – 123.45
The misconception of the needle being at the 0.07 mark on the dial – as above comes from the fact that there are 10 markings from 0 to 0.1 – so 7 tenths puts the needle at seven, from the ten available from 0 to 0.1 There is however a slight problem with this theory. There are also 10 markings in the next section from 0.1 to 0.2 and so on up the scale. 50 in total. As we read scales from the 0 mark, if the needle were to stop on the 0.2 marking, the needle would have 20 markings from 0 to 0.2. We would not be able to say 20 tenths. It would be referred to (if at all) as 1 twentieth. However whenever we say readings like this we always say the amount, out of the amount available. If the needle were where the Halt memo says it was, it would have to be written or said as 7 out of the total available, (this would enable plotting/reporting easily by parties after the event). The total in this case would be 50. So the verbal report would have been 7 fiftieths. So in order to get the verbal reading of 7 tenths out of the ten available we have to look at the scale and see where it divides up into 10 equal markings. And it does. After we do this we can see that 7 tenths fits on the scale easily. Using the prominent markings shown below. REMEMBER although the report is 7 tenths and the debumkers would have you believe it meant 0.07 as per the Halt memo, the Halt tape though transcribed by everyone is as follows:


Lt Col Halt: Can you read that on the scale?
Sgt Nevilles: Yes Sir. We’re now on the 5 tenths scale (0 to 0.5 and therefore clearly understood that tenths means one place after the decimal point) and we are reading about . . er. . third , fourth, make(mark) over.

Look familiar?

Image

Image


This gives us a reading of the 7th marking out of the ten available which puts us at 0.35 milliroentgens per hour after reading off the scale below the markings.

However before any of this to help confirm the above we get at 01:25 hours on the Halt tape:

Sgt Nevilles: We’re getting right at half a millirem.

That’s here.

Image


Later we get the 7 tenths reading which is explained above. However and this is where it gets confusing. The manual for this meter says that you approach the area on the highest scale and if you get nothing you work your way down the scales. So you would start on the highest selection 0 to 500 milliroentgens per hour and work your way through until the needle shows a reading. So you would assume (and I have to say if your getting right at half a millrem/milliroentgen I would, as would any radiation monitor) that Nevilles changed scales to 0 to 5.0 To see if it went higher than the, full scale deflection on the 0 to 0.5 scale. So we get Halt asking is that “up to 7 tenths (0.7) or 7 units (7.0) its called on the point 5 scale (0.5). Well clearly 7.0 cannot fit on the lowest scale nor on the next scale up. Which is worrying because that means if it was units it would have to be on the 0 to 50 milliroentgens per hour scale.

Like this.

Image

Before Nevilles can answer Halt makes a plan to survey the area. Neville’s only reply is “right”. Right to what, the plan or 7 units or 7 tenths. Slightly worrying because right after Halt gives his plan Halt says “put the light on it an sweep around it”. So it was dark enough for Halt to miss Neville’s cycling through the scales perhaps, who knows?

Following only the radiation reports through the transcripts we get:

25 30 feet from the site – Minor clicks.
At the site now – still getting clicks.
Can you read that on the scale – 0 to 0.5 scale third, fourth make(mark) over.
Second pod indentation – minor readings (readings none the less).
Third pod marking – getting residual and definitely giving a little pulse.
At the centre now – best deflection of the needle I’ve seen yet. (so the highest so far)
Can you give me an estimation – half a millirem on the 0 to 0.5 scale

From here they move on to between the pod marking and the centre, and then the confusing bit of 7 tenths or 7 units. Strangely no one ever focuses on the half a millrem reading and always argue over the 7 tenths position. Which I hope was not 7 units. If as you should do, Neville’s changed the scale when he reached the half a millirem on the 0 to 0.5 scale 7 tenths (0.7) can be seen plotted here on the next scale up.

0.7 on the 0 to 5.0 scale

Image

A short while later while Halt is examining the “abrasion on the tree” Lt Englund declares that they are getting interest meaning the radiation readings, and Halt says ok lets go on back around and there is a break in the tape.

When the tape is started again there is clicking sounds. It has been reported that this is the Geiger counter clicking. It is not. I have used meters like this for years and it is the sound of the scale being changed. Now if I counted the number of clicks, and I could be sure what scale they were on (which you can’t because the tape breaks between readings) then I would know what scale they could be on. However you cannot be sure. But as the clicking stops Nevilles says “that’s what it gives” meaning the readings. You can tell by his tone he is enlightened. At first we get no verbal reports of note, then picking up and picking up and we hear LT Englund proclaim “astonishing” which means he finds something unusual. Halt says “yeah but your still not going above 3 to 4 units. 3.0 to 4.0. on the next scale up from 0 to 0.5. Shortly afterwards 2 to 3 to 4 units. Now it has to be the next scale up because they have already shown that they are familiar with using units to mean figures, left of the decimal point i.e whole numbers.

Image

Radiation reading conclusions.

The radiation readings need to be converted into modern day units in order that the significance is not lost for the future.

Firstly you have to question the presence of a radiation detection device at all. I know when there is a security breach the first people to turn up are the guards. If there is an intruder the balloon goes up. When you may have a downed aircraft the fire service are called. When you get a big bang the fire service are called. Who in their right mind gathers a “group of experts” and a radiation monitoring device. Unless you expect radiation based on prior knowledge. I mean if you take nothing further from this be amazed at that bit of guesswork.

THE most significant thing you can do is NOT get embroiled in the 7 tenths 7 units argument. We have exact non-disputable higher readings of “right at half a millirem. Remember when measuring gamma only i.e the beta shield is across, it is perfectly acceptable to cross back and forth from millrem to milliroentgens.

I will list the readings as they appear through the Halt tape.

“Minor clicks” – no idea (each radioactive particle that goes through the tube produces the reading. The more particles the more the needle deflects. The same applies with the clicks. No one can translate this legitimately because my reference for minor clicks would depend on my career. If I worked with nuclear weapons most of the time, then minor clicks could mean quite a bit in woodland nowhere near a nuclear weapon. Or they could just be minor clicks. Who knows?

“Still getting clicks” – again no idea but its reading something. Background gives the odd click now and then. Not clicks. And of course if they were doing as the manual said they should, they could well be on the highest scale at this point. But again who knows.

0 to 0.5 scale – third, fourth make(mark) over – 0.35 Millroentgens per hour. This converted into the International units is 3.5 uSv per hour. Interesting because this makes it a supervised radiation area now. Dosimeters must be worn etc. Wonder where those records are?

Minor readings – as it says, but, from their perspective.

Second pod – minor readings – as above

Third pod – residual and a little more excited so clearly more than the above. How much by is anyone’s guess.




Centre – best deflection – estimation etc. . . half a millirem. 0.5 full scale deflection on the 0 to 0.5 scale. This gives us 5 uSv/hr which is well within the supervised radiation area and creeping up towards controlled radiation area limits of 7.5uSv/hr

7 tenths 7 units discussion, which would be back to 0.35 milliroentgens and 3.5 uSv’hr. However if the scales had been changed then it could well mean 7 units recorded which means 7 milliroentgens per hour and this is 70 uSv/hr

2 to 3 to 4 units is a maximum of 4 milliroentgens per hour which is 40 uSv/hr

These readings would obviously be well past both Supervised radiation area, and Controlled radiation area and into Restricted radiation area territory.

Later on as they are following the lights and taking readings (though we never hear a value just clicks) we hear the beta shield has been removed. This obviously shows that the operator knew what the shield did.

Probe with beta shield removed:

Image


As explained previously it does prevent beta radiation entering the probe. So the implication is, that the shield had not been previously removed for the readings we have on tape. The implication is that the readings voiced were gamma alone. I find it odd, that faced with the unknown anyone should choose to take a radiation monitor with them on what is in essence an intruder alert or at worst a downed aircraft. The only logical assumption I can make is that based on prior knowledge the team felt it necessary to take a radiation meter with them in order to assess the danger from a supposed radiological source. Knowing that the levels have exceeded the supervised and perhaps the controlled radiation area limits, they would have also had the forethought to take dosimeters. These would then have been assessed for measurement of exposure. These records will be held somewhere as is the law. Further more, given that these radiological area doses have been exceeded, precautions would have been put in place. Barriers. Personnel would have to be monitored in and out of the area. As per the AN/PDR-27 manuals instructions, this practice was in place in the face of a radiological hazard. These facts are not assumption they are procedure.

A further interesting thing is this - if you are used to radiological incidents or practice scenarios you are used to wearing dosimeters. These days they are electronic real time dose meters - mini GM tubes, but also you wear a neutron track plate and a TLD (thermo luminescent dosimeter) for beta gamma exposure. However you also get an older device in an emergency called a QFD - quartz fibre dosimeter. Remember these are only issued in an emergency exposure situation when you do not have the more common forms of dosimeter. I remember reading somewhere that one of the witnesses found what looked like a small pen like object made of metal. Not something like this then perhaps?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Direct-reading_dosimeter.jpg

Finally if anyone wishes to ask me anything feel free to email/PM as required.

Source for meter pictures: http://www.alpharubicon.com/basicnbc/anpdr27ser.htm
Source for radiological info: IRR1999, personal knowledge.
Handy converter: http://www.convertworld.com/en/equivale ... lirem.html
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Re: Rendlesham Forest Incident - Radiation Readings June 201

Postby slipX » Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:19 pm

Fantastic work, Storm.
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Re: Rendlesham Forest Incident - Radiation Readings June 201

Postby larry warren » Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:35 am

You deserve an award for this work! i learned alot and for the first time that i know of, you
have made very clear that we all were exposed to somthing that simply cant be good for us,
in fact i feel that expousure is perhaps worse than we imagine ! outstanding storm, and unnerving to say the least.
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Re: Rendlesham Forest Incident - Radiation Readings June 201

Postby Storm » Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:01 am

I just hope it helps Larry.
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Re: Rendlesham Forest Incident - Radiation Readings June 201

Postby stephan » Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:18 pm

Storm wrote:I find it odd, that faced with the unknown anyone should choose to take a radiation monitor with them on what is in essence an intruder alert or at worst a downed aircraft. The only logical assumption I can make is that based on prior knowledge the team felt it necessary to take a radiation meter with them in order to assess the danger from a supposed radiological source.

I find that odd, too. Throughout the tape recording they are counting clicks. At times it almost seems as if the geiger counter is more important than the UFOs. I agree that the listener cannot avoid the impression that UFOs (i.e. ET crafts) are radioactive. But to be honest I don't think they are. I remember though what I recently heard in an interview with Stanton Friedman:

Friedman wrote:I spent 14 years in industry working on canceled government-sponsored research and development programs: nuclear airplanes, fission rockets, fusion-nuclear rockets, nuclear power plants for space [...] we operated aircraft engines on nuclear power

that for me could be another explanation for why they allegedly used those geiger counters to investigate ''downed'' crafts. They may have thought it was one of those 'canceled government sponsored programs'.
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Re: Rendlesham Forest Incident - Radiation Readings June 201

Postby Frank » Thu Jul 15, 2010 8:01 pm

Hi Stephan,

This NASA scientist: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_R._Hill has studied UFO's for years and published a very interesting scientific analysis about them in a book called "Unconventional Flying Objects - a scientific analysis".

He comes to the conclusion that UFO's are highly radioactive, emitting gamma photons that will penetrate the soil to plant root depths where their energy is dissipated and the soil is heated as a result. These gamma photons, however, do not carry enough energy to make the targets they hit radio-active. He also concludes that these gamma photons are probably a side-effect of a highly directive anti-gravity field generated by the UFO, and that these gamma photons have the same direction as this field.

His theory predicts that the result of a hovering UFO close to the ground would be that a number of spots that were hit by the anti-gravity field are heated but would hardly show any residual radioactive radiation. This is exactly what is seen in the Rendlesham case! The heat radiation of the spots is picked up by a Starscope (that amplifies ambient light, including the infra-red region (= heat radiation)). There is even a hint of heated sap in the trees, in the fragment where Col. Halt is amazed about the sap that was running so fast from the damaged spot on the tree, while the Starscope picks up heat radiation from these spots.

Note that Paul Hill formed his theory years before the Rendlesham incident.

You can read parts of his book for free on Amazon, just click "Look Inside":
http://www.amazon.com/Unconventional-Flying-Objects-Scientific-Analysis/dp/1571740279
If you read his summary of "the UFO pattern" you will be amazed how many elements of the Rendlesham case can be recognized!

If a NASA scientist figured out that UFO's are radioactive, maybe some other people in the USAF also knew and maybe that is why they carried Geiger counters. In one fragment they even seem to use a Geiger counter in combination with a compass to measure the direction where radiation is coming from (this would give a good indication of the direction where a UFO can be found).
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Re: Rendlesham Forest Incident - Radiation Readings June 201

Postby Deep Purple » Thu Jul 15, 2010 8:48 pm

An interesting analysis of the radiation readings.
One thing to bear in mind would be if a helo moving a pallet of the new DU rounds for the A10 lost it in the woods and it split open they would be out there checking to find them with radiation testing equipment. This would also require a huge security blanket for many years--- remeber the Greenham Common Peace protestors. DU rounds were just being started to be used and these would have been secret and the idea would have been to use these to stop a soviet tank invasion. The A10 which was based at Rendlesham had the GAU Avenger Cannon which fired 30mm shells including DU rounds at ahigh rate and could blast through most things and rip most tanks apart.
It was so effective its still used today.
This is a more wordly explanantion and doesnt involve light houses ( sorry IanR) and is worth discussing
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Re: Rendlesham Forest Incident - Radiation Readings June 201

Postby stephan » Fri Jul 16, 2010 12:58 am

@ Frank,

so far I haven't heard of Paul R. Hill. From what I've seen in the Wiki article and on the few pages of his book I skimmed through it's interesting though. What's also interesting is that he's another scientist who was (allegedly) working on nuclear-powered airplanes:

Wiki wrote:Special NACA/NASA and other assignments

Member, AEC ad hoc Committee for Nuclear Propulsion, Technical Advisory Board: Aerodynamic design of a supersonic nuclear-powered airplane


which probably made him search for the mysteries of UFO propulsion in the field of his specialisation. But I'm sure there are also different approaches to the ET craft propulsion issue, for example S. Friedman offers additional possibilities in this article

it is clear that UFOs do radiate. Light is radiation. Possibly they also emit some form of x-rays. When I said 'I don't think they are radioactive' I meant that they do not radiate like dangerous substances, e.g. Plutonium. I know that Larry blames the UFO he has witnessed for the health problems he has and I guess Jim does so, too. But both - and maybe a few others, I think JB as well ? - were allegedly exposed to some dubious drugs (don't remember the name right now) during their interrogation and as far as I remember none of the other witnesses (some 80+ ?) complained about such health issues due to the events. Furthermore the occupants of such a craft would certainly be exposed to the radiation as well being very close to it all the time. And if we assume that they are biological entities like we are their genome is probably just as vulnerable as ours.

IMO it's plausible to think that Halt was rather prepared for some more terrestrial UFO, i.e. some sort of 'canceled government sponsored program' involving nuclear powered airplanes than for an extraterrestrial craft. At least it sounds to me like that when I read:

The following evening Halt was at a social function when a young airman burst in and ran up to the colonel. "Sir," he stammered, "It's back". Halt looked confused. "What?" he retorted, "What's back?". "The UFO, Sir - the UFO's back". Halt remained sceptical but gathered together a small team and went out into the forest to investigate. He subsequently stated that he went out with no expectation of seeing anything. In his own words, he said that his intention was to "debunk" the whole affair.


source: http://www.nickpope.net/rendlesham-fore ... cident.htm
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Re: Rendlesham Forest Incident - Radiation Readings June 201

Postby Frank » Sat Jul 17, 2010 10:17 am

Thanks for the link to Friedman's article, Stephan. A very interesting read.

Friedman seems to split up the propulsion problem in two parts, propulsion of small "earth exploration vehicles" and propulsion for space travel. He then offers nuclear rockets as a possibility for space travel and electro-magnetic propulsion as a propulsion possibility for the "earth exploration vehicles".

A nuclear-powered rocket lifting off would make an awful lot of noise and leave and awful lot of mess, so I don't think this is what the RFI witnesses saw.

You made an important remark on the supposed radioactivity of UFO's: If a UFO radiates gamma photons, this would probably be harmful for the occupants. However, in Paul Hill's propulsion proposal the gamma photons would be directed away from the UFO so the occupants would be safe (just like we are safe from the jets of an airliner).

His propulsion proposal is a powerful beam of electrons that is targeted at a cloud of positrons. This would yield a beam of anti-gravitons and gamma photons travelling in the same direction as the initial electron beam.
Note that this proposal is based on the fuzzy frontiers of physics in the mid-seventies, but it does match the UFO data, including that of the RFI: Strong electric fields, a glowing plasma, ground heating, symptoms of exposure to radiation on the witnesses, no sound, hardly any damage to the area, huge accelerations without a sonic boom and without the craft burning up due to air friction. So despite the fact that the physics he used may be a little old, it is a very compelling theory.

Of course discussions about UFO propulsion remain highly speculative. UFO's may use a part of physics that we have yet to discover, or are slowly starting to discover. Maybe you have heard of the Alcubierre Warp Drive? It is not related to UFO research, but surely sheds a whole different light on the possibilities for space travel. Just Google it and you'll find a lot of interesting info.
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Re: Rendlesham Forest Incident - Radiation Readings June 201

Postby stephan » Sun Jul 18, 2010 1:29 pm

Frank,

for me personally the question of UFO propulsion is less relevant as all theories are highly speculative (we agree here). What's more important to me is the question if their emitted radiation (be it light or x-rays or gamma rays) pose an inevitable threat to health. You said that UFOs are highly radioactive. I suppose that this would mean some non-negligable health problems. So what we have to look at is what they allegedly measured and compare it with empirical (scientific) data. Let's say they measured 0.5 R per hour (as I understand the scale which Storm posted has a maximum of 500 mR (=0.5 R)). Here's a list I found on the net. Where the lowest exposure level is mentioned it says:

TOTAL EXPOSURE ONSET & DURATION OF INITIAL SYMPTOMS & DISPOSITION

30 to 70 R From 6-12 hours: none to slight incidence of transient headache and nausea;
vomiting in up to 5 percent of personnel in upper part of dose range. Mild
lymphocyte depression within 24 hours. Full recovery expected.

so let's assume the lowest value here would be (I hope I understood that correctly, if not, jlmk :wink: ) 30 R/ 12 h= 2.5 R/ h (or 2500 mR/ h). That is 5 times more than the maximum on the scale they used (again, I don't know if my interpretation of the scale is correct). Since full recovery is expected in the case of 2500 mR/ h that should definitely be applicable to 500 mR/ h. So there would be no threat at all. Thus I won't call UFOs highly radioactive :wink:

Frank wrote:You made an important remark on the supposed radioactivity of UFO's: If a UFO radiates gamma photons, this would probably be harmful for the occupants. However, in Paul Hill's propulsion proposal the gamma photons would be directed away from the UFO so the occupants would be safe (just like we are safe from the jets of an airliner).

you probably mean some sort of exhaust. In that case it won't be the whole surface of the vehicle which radiates but the radiation would be directed for example to the ground. But the witnesses faced the UFOs mostly from the side. So if the whole surface was emitting dangerous x-rays or gamma rays this would mean that the surface itself was the actual source of dangerous radiation if the occupants were not to be affected because they are sitting inside. But then again if Hill was right about the nuclear propulsion the source of radiation would more likely come somewhere from the center of the craft (where its alleged engine would be located) and as the radiation would pass through its surface it would first have to pass through its occupants. Hence they'd be contaminated. I don't remember exactly where Larry said it (perhaps if he reads along here he could clarify this) but I think he said that he was looking into the light emitted by the craft which dazzled him because he was standing to close to it and not protecting his eyes. If you look into the sun without protecting your eyes you'll experience a similar effect and if exposure is too long the result will be permanent eye damage. So he was maybe a bit incautious ?

Btw, this also reminds me of what P. Robbins and L.W: said in regard to the appearance of the UFO and the beings (right now I don't have the book LAEG, will probably get it 2morrow or on Tuesday :D). The object and the beings were somewhat translucent which might indicate that the propulsion of the craft could be based on a totally unknown method.
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Re: Rendlesham Forest Incident - Radiation Readings June 201

Postby Frank » Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:07 pm

Hi Stephan,

I'm afraid that residual radiation left in the ground does not say much about the actual amount of radiation emitted by the UFO.
This is because you need gamma photons that are powerful enough to knock neutrons from the nucleus of an atom to get any residual radiation.

If you picture an atom as a tiny nucleus consisting of neutrons and protons, surrounded by electrons in various orbits, this atom would only become radioactive if it would loose one or more neutrons (if it becomes an "isotope"). Only gamma ray photons with a very high energy can knock away neutrons and would leave residual radiation emitted by isotopes in the ground this way. Gamma ray photons with a lower energy would only knock electrons from their orbits, leaving the atoms electrically charged and ultimately leaving residual heat (=infrared radiation) in the ground - no residual radioactivity. (That's why they call this kind of X-rays "ionizing radiation" - since an electrically charged atom is called an ion.)

So the only way to tell how radioactive the UFO actually was is by the health effects on the witnesses. This is exactly what Paul Hill does in his book. He discusses numerous cases where witnesses showed radiation sickness (and even one very severe case where a witness died from radiation sickness one week after standing very close to a UFO). He also discusses a case where 250 milliroentgens was measured radiating from a UFO some distance away. Based on this data he concludes that "UFO's are highly radioactive". Of course this does not have to mean they are all equally radioactive - we just do not have enough data for such a conclusion. Ground heating, for instance, could also be caused by microwave radiation. But in LEAG you can read that Larry did have health issues related to exposure to an X-ray source, and not only to his eyes.

You're right, eye problems can also be caused by a bright plasma (which emits ultraviolet radiation that is harmfull to the eyes). A bright plasma can be caused by very strong electric fields and/or ionizing gamma radiation. Both are observed in combination with UFO's (the electric field caused malfunctioning radios and equipment in the RFI, as well as the feeling of static electricity in the air).


By the way, it seems that UFO's finally start to understand they have to land at airports, not in woods .. ;-)
http://abcnews.go.com/International/ufo-china-closes-airport-prompts-investigation/story?id=11159531&page=1
(The ony thing they have to do now is figure out how to reserve a gate ..)
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Re: Rendlesham Forest Incident - Radiation Readings June 201

Postby stephan » Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:48 am

Frank,
I understand the physics - in general - behind radioactivity, no need to explain things to me :wink: Anyway, I assumed a much higher value (500 mR) as they measured, already considering the possibility that the source itself would have emitted much more intensive radiation. But still 500 mR would be totally harmless. I tend to agree with Ian here that what they measured might just as well have been nothing more than natural background radiation because the values they mention on the spots and those not on the spots do not differ very much, if at all. My supposition is that they went out with a geiger counter because Halt and a few others were probably aware of black projects involving nuclear-powered airplanes (see quote further up) and thought one of them had downed there.

As for alleged victims of hypothetical radioactive UFOs I'd like to see those reports and stories. They are certainly somewhere on the web. There have been many quacksalvers in the past who claimed a lot of BS, also a few who were probably NOT victims of UFOs but of some secret military/ government projects. For example this issue was raised in the Cash-Landrum Incident which allegedly happened only one day after Rendlesham. We also cannot exclude the possibility - which in my eyes is highly probable - that disinformation is spread and even simulated UFO ''attacks'' are perpetrated by those in the know. Keep in mind, it is obvious that ET doesn't like nukes* - the military and governments (still) do. Thus, creating the concept of the enemy seems to be a welcome method here.

Some ppl seemed to ''offer'' seductive explanations for UFO propulsion, like Bob Lazar who has been telling ppl that he was working on alien crafts in a secret facility near Area 51 and who claimed that they were propelled by element 115 which is complete nonsense. But ppl believed him (at least for some time).

Eye damage does not necessarily need to be caused by radioactivity, not even by UV light. Any bright light source will do. As I said, you only need to look at the sun for a few seconds and you might get blind. So we have the same symptoms but different causes.

* finally I got LAEG now :D - since short quotes from the book are allowed:

Lord Hill-Norton wrote:Whether they are aware of reports from the United States Air Force personnel that nuclear weapons stored in the Weapons Storage Area at RAF Woodbridge were struck by beams of light fired from an unidentified craft seen over the base in the period 25-30 December 1980

source Left At East Gate, page xxxii, underlined text by me
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Re: Rendlesham Forest Incident - Radiation Readings June 201

Postby Storm » Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:05 pm

I feel the need to step in here because there are various things slipping through here as fact and in fact they are incorrect.

One thing to bear in mind would be if a helo moving a pallet of the new DU rounds for the A10 lost it in the woods and it split open they would be out there checking to find them with radiation testing equipment. This would also require a huge security blanket for many years---


no - in fact all accidents even some quite shocking ones are logged and now in the public domain. You might suggest that military ones would be kept hush hush however even these are in the public domain including one at the base some years before where an A - 10 fired rounds into the WSA, and this is to name but one on that base. Military implies the ability to cover things up however with radiation matters there are too many public sector workers that get involved. Whilst some small accidents may slip through, a noisy aircraft (not reported on the night) dropping a large pallet of very heavy rounds, would attract a great deal of attention. Besides with a half life of billions of years the depleted Uranium would be detectable today as clearly as in 1980. You would not be able to find it all.

If a UFO radiates gamma photons, this would probably be harmful for the occupants. However, in Paul Hill's propulsion proposal the gamma photons would be directed away from the UFO so the occupants would be safe (just like we are safe from the jets of an airliner).


No - radiation radiates in all directions. The only thing that can prevent that is some form of shielding. In order to shield it must be made from dense material capable of retarding/stopping or slowing the energy. If this is done the energy does not just stop with no effect. If slowed or stopped fast enough to shield this creates heat. A lot of heat. However the best system for achieving this is threefold - Time - Distance - shielding. Reduce exposure time, increase distance from the radioactive object (engine/source/whatever) - shield. Paper will stop Alpha, Boronated polythene or aluminium will stop Beta, Lead/concrete will stop gamma. Water will moderate (slow), and hafnium will too. You cannot aim radiation away from something unless you shield or use magnetics on a huge scale. And I mean huge. Assuming the propulsion source was gamma it would need something to start the cascade effect in the first place which you say would have to be gamma. . . .

Only gamma ray photons with a very high energy can knock away neutrons and would leave residual radiation emitted by isotopes in the ground this way. Gamma ray photons with a lower energy would only knock electrons from their orbits, leaving the atoms electrically charged and ultimately leaving residual heat (=infrared radiation) in the ground - no residual radioactivity. (That's why they call this kind of X-rays "ionizing radiation" - since an electrically charged atom is called an ion.)


No - Ionizing radiation does not require only a gamma source. Alpha Beta or gamma or X-ray are classed as ionizing radiation, amongst others more exotic. The key is their initial energy and the material with which they then interact. The ionization process is an effect of interaction with a high energy particle from a source of radiation. The level of the effect is denoted by the material it interacts with.

You're right, eye problems can also be caused by a bright plasma (which emits ultraviolet radiation that is harmfull to the eyes). A bright plasma can be caused by very strong electric fields and/or ionizing gamma radiation.


Whilst these exotic circumstances obviously exist the main thing and easily evidence based observation about radiation causing eye problems is this: Radiation is moderated (slowed down) by water due to waters density and the fact that it is moving. Energy dissipates in it quite well. This energy is given up as heat. The lens of the eye is in a sac. The radiation hits the eye, the lens is literally cooked forming a cataract. Its as simple as that.

Other more earthly causes are the symptoms one gets from a welding light as you said which is the ultraviolet light spectrum. Arc Eye (I speak from experience) is one of the most painful debilitating experiences you could possibly imagine. Nothing relieves the pain except really good drugs. Sleep is all but impossible and this lasts (exposure length dependent) about 24 - 48 hours. Maybe as long as a week. I doubt it was this though. Holding my head and writhing around for half a day in pain is what happened to me after 4 seconds exposure (thankfully only in one eye as it was to my side and I looked away quickly) at a distance of 60 yards, and they watched this for 3 to 4 hours on and off. I would look at another explanation.

Stephan wrote - But still 500 mR would be totally harmless.


What?

Here is the site you used to determine that - http://www.unitedstatesaction.com/index.htm - the "list" is dated 1977 and the site is dubious to say the least.

That equates to 5000 microsieverts per hour. 5 THOUSAND MICROSIEVERTS PER HOUR - totally harmless???
Stephan that is very very wrong I am afraid.
The law states that a radiation worker can have 1 millisievert per year as his annual dose from an artificial source. This is to reduce effects from radiation exposure later on in life. Reduce not negate.

So your saying that 500 millirem per hour (as per the scale) is totally harmless. Which equates to the modern units as 5000 microsieverts per hour, which equates to 5 millisieverts per hour.

A radiation worker is permitted to receive 1 millisievert per year over the period of a year and your saying he can have 5 years worth in one hour and that will be totally harmless. Er no. Not ever dude. It may not be on the scale of Hiroshima but it is not harmless. Hence the limits placed on radiation areas I stated at the beginning of this thread and to reiterate what those areas are here they are again:

Uncontrolled radiation area - less than 2.5uSv/hr
Supervised Radiation area - 2.5uSv/hr to 7.5uSv/hr
Controlled radiation area - 7.5uSv/hr or more

You use the measurement on the "list" as your working exposure example. Whilst your maths is correct your assumption of what full recovery means is wrong. Full recovery means in the "now" sense. By that I mean that it may well be that people recover but to what degree. They may be walking talking etc . . but that does not denote full recovery in any other sense but a medical professional sense. An amputee is classed as fully recovered when he is discharged - hardly what we would call whole though. The resultant effects of radiation exposure later on in life fall into two main camps. Stochastic and non stochastic and non deterministic and deterministic. These asses the probability of diseases like cancers and hard tumours later on in life as a result of direct exposure. Full recovery I assure you is not what you think it is. It really only means "was discharged from hospital and can care for ones self and there is nothing further medical treatment can do to improve the situation of the patient".

I hope that helps clarify a few things.
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Re: Rendlesham Forest Incident - Radiation Readings June 201

Postby Frank » Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:36 pm

No - radiation radiates in all directions.


Yes, Storm, this is true for most radiation sources. In case of Hill's proposal however things are a little different because the radiation is caused by electron-positron annihilation by a highly directive beam of electrons striking positrons. Due to the law of conservation of momentum the gamma photons would then be directional.


Ionizing radiation does not require only a gamma source. Alpha Beta or gamma or X-ray are classed as ionizing radiation, amongst others more exotic. The key is their initial energy and the material with which they then interact. The ionization process is an effect of interaction with a high energy particle from a source of radiation. The level of the effect is denoted by the material it interacts with.


I think we are trying to say the same thing with different words (?) (except you are more complete by including alpha and beta particles). What I was trying to say is that low energy particles (gamma photons or beta or alpha particles) would not yield residual radiation, only high energy particles will. So the witnesses could be exposed to large doses of mild X-rays without any residual radiation left in the ground and therefore the residual radiation tells you little about possible X-ray exposure to the witnesses (if any). The only thing that may tell something about that are health issues.

Stephan, I agree with you that there is a lot of BS around when it comes to UFO's. But believe me, Hill is in a complete different league than Lazar. His work and his theories are the best I have encountered so far. He is not claiming any "inside knowledge" or "cover up". He just uses the cases available in the UFO literature (including two sightings of his own), tries to find patterns and tries to make scientific sense of these patterns. Highly recommended!
That does not mean he is right of course, but he does propose a good theory that seems to fit the RFI data.

Despite of the BS I do not like to go into all kinds of cover up and disinformation theories, nor do I like theories that witnesses are making things up. These theories tend to take you in a "wilderness of mirrors" and you can not find the exit anymore .. Maybe there are cover ups involved and maybe witnesses are not telling the (full) truth, but until there is very solid evidence for this my approach would be to take the statements and the evidence at face value and see where this takes you. This may be a little naive, but for me it has proven to be more productive than entering the "wilderness of mirrors" :mrgreen:
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Re: Rendlesham Forest Incident - Radiation Readings June 201

Postby Storm » Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:02 pm

What I was trying to say is that low energy particles (gamma photons or beta or alpha particles) would not yield residual radiation, only high energy particles will. So the witnesses could be exposed to large doses of mild X-rays without any residual radiation left in the ground and therefore the residual radiation tells you little about possible X-ray exposure to the witnesses (if any). The only thing that may tell something about that are health issues.


Not that i ever support debunkers but: This of course means that you are advocating a specific power source. However to back up that theory you use the argument that there was little or no ground radiation to detect. However there was. Also by saying only x rays you are submitting that as an alternate source of radiation. But this implies that you know there were no other isotopes present. Isotopes that could have decayed away in seconds minutes hours. I don't thinknyou can make that assumption legitimately. The only thing that could tell us that would be gamma spectrometry or beta end point study. Not a PDR 27. Health effects can only be guessed at due to the random nature of radioactivity.
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Re: Rendlesham Forest Incident - Radiation Readings June 201

Postby stephan » Wed Jul 21, 2010 9:54 pm

Storm wrote:
Stephan wrote - But still 500 mR would be totally harmless.


What?

Here is the site you used to determine that - http://www.unitedstatesaction.com/index.htm - the "list" is dated 1977 and the site is dubious to say the least.

Storm,

first off, possibly I was a bit superficial in regard to choosing that list as a source, I don't know if it's reliable or not. But that was because I think that UFOs don't pose any radioactive threat whatsoever (well, that's my standpoint, you can read about it in my ''introduce yourself'' post). I'm in no way trying to play down the negative effects of radioactivity, it can be a terrible thing. I think it's a bit confusing with all the units (sievert, rem, roentgen, gray and whatnot). However, I took mR (milliRoentgen) because it was the alleged unit being used with their geiger counters. Okay, I've checked the exposure levels again and I hope this time ''my'' sources are correct :roll:

wiki wrote:A typical dose of normal background radiation for a human is 200 mR per year or 23 uR per hour.

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%B6ntgen

so maybe it's useful to look at what they actually measured. You indicated:

Storm wrote:Sgt Nevilles: We’re getting right at half a millirem.

that would be 500 uR/ h which is roughly 22 times higher than normal background radiation (if Wiki is correct :wink: ). However, according to the Halt memo they measured about 0.1 mR, which would only be 4-5 times normal background radiation. Considering deviations from the average value 23 uR, 4-5 times rather sounds like natural fluctuations than something else.

Frank wrote:Despite of the BS I do not like to go into all kinds of cover up and disinformation theories, nor do I like theories that witnesses are making things up. These theories tend to take you in a "wilderness of mirrors" and you can not find the exit anymore ..

well, ufology is all about seperating the wheat from the chaff. For example, allegedly some 95 % or so of all UFO sightings can either be explained or are hoaxes. So IMO we have to be very sceptical with every report and sighting. In the Rendlesham case there can be no doubt that the events really took place. But there are far too many reports which have been proven to be hoaxes or which were at least very dissonant. And if there's good reason to believe that disinformation is spread we should not back off avoiding any kind of discussion in that regard (the ''witness'' Lazar is just an example). Otherwise we might end up believing ''their'' false stories which is - of course - intended and include them in our ''theories''.

uR = microRoentgen (SQL doesn't like the micro sign :roll: )
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Re: Rendlesham Forest Incident - Radiation Readings June 201

Postby Storm » Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:44 am

wiki wrote:
A typical dose of normal background radiation for a human is 200 mR per year or 23 uR per hour.

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%B6ntgen

so maybe it's useful to look at what they actually measured. You indicated:

Storm wrote:
Sgt Nevilles: We’re getting right at half a millirem.

that would be 500 uR/ h which is roughly 22 times higher than normal background radiation (if Wiki is correct ). However, according to the Halt memo they measured about 0.1 mR, which would only be 4-5 times normal background radiation. Considering deviations from the average value 23 uR, 4-5 times rather sounds like natural fluctuations than something else.


Ok right - this is difficult because you re using two sources for your theories. The actual tape recorder readings - live as it were. And then a memo which has already been proven to be at fault. (dates)

I used the live readings because they are live. They are agreed by a)Nevilles a nuclear accident preparedness officer b) Halt c)Lt Englund and whoever else was there. Those readings hold more weight than a memo. And in Halts own words "I only wrote that memo as a tickler if you will" in order to prompt some kind of action. All sorts of things could have happened and he did say he sanitised it. So that info is tainted with afterthought and consideration of possible consequences.

Live unhindered readings are more reliable. Now some may say well Halt would not know his arse from his elbow with regard to the readings. Not true " so we are still comfortably s safe here" - no contradiction from Nevilles or anyone else. You cant say that unless you have an understanding of limits.

Now - there are two other snags in your understanding.

1. There has been interplay with regard to radiation readings and the use of the word contamination. To clarify radiation is a wave of energy. Contamination is particulate matter that is radioactive. If you are contaminated it is by particulate matter that is radioactive and has got onto you from somewhere or in you. If you get hit by radiation you are irradiated. Not contaminated.

2. You are using radiation readings as a whole. And lumping the understanding of units into one system. They are not one system. Now I was hoping to avoid this but hopefully I will be able to explain clearly. Some units are actual radiation readings. Others however are a unit that represents absorbed radiation (dose). They are interchangeable in understanding but not in value. If that makes sense. Until you can grasp that you cannot really guess doses at all. Because flopping back and forth between old and new units and then trying to work out effect is very hard.

However that said you dont need to do that. You need a value which we have 0.5 and 2 to 3 to 4 units. Simple. All that needs to be done then is converted into units that modern day radiation workers will understand - microsieverts and your done.

I think that to try and use the values we have in order to presume a power source is kind of folly. To do that you would need to exclude all other possibility (impossible). There is also a factor at play which has been shouted down already and I cant be bothered to fight that stance because its not my job to play convincer to those who think they know better. But there is a major radioactive factor at play that has not been taken into account. The answers are all there and are in the public domain. It has even been approached before on this forum I have found. Yet it too was sidetracked and discarded and I now know wrongly.

Also to consider is the inverse square law which has not been considered at and to do that would be negligent in all matters. The inverse square law states that if you have a radioactive source thats fine. However if you double the distance from that source you quarter the dose received. Now it does not become any less radioactive. Not at all. However it reduces the dose and possible damage that you will receive or measure for that matter. So clicks from the meter aimed at the UFO which was 5 to 7 miles away , assuming they accounted for background - thats quite a bit lol.

And Stephan you missquoted me in the respect that you focused on the website remark. That was something we have all done - the factor was the values taken were from 1977 - which are not going to be as up to date as they should be in order to asses radiation related medical issues. However to quote a British Comedian Lee Evans - my eyebrows nearly fell from my face, when I saw the most huge error in your assumptions:


Stephan wrote - But still 500 mR would be totally harmless.


Which as I stated is 5000 uSv/hr and under IRR's 1999 - 1000 uSv/yr (yr - per year, not per hr (hour) notice) is the limit which if breached causes so much paperwork and investigation and you advocating that 5 years worth in one hour was harmless was what made me pipe up. Because my eyebrows nearly did fall from my face dude. Oh and just a quick thing you may say that you did not say per hour. You did in fact when you used the meter as the source - its measurement are per hour. Ok dude.
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Re: Rendlesham Forest Incident - Radiation Readings June 201

Postby stephan » Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:23 pm

Storm wrote:Ok right - this is difficult because you re using two sources for your theories. The actual tape recorder readings - live as it were. And then a memo which has already been proven to be at fault. (dates)

I'm just considering and calculating BOTH possibilities. I did not say which is right and which is wrong.

I used the live readings because they are live. They are agreed by a)Nevilles a nuclear accident preparedness officer b) Halt c)Lt Englund and whoever else was there. Those readings hold more weight than a memo. And in Halts own words "I only wrote that memo as a tickler if you will" in order to prompt some kind of action. All sorts of things could have happened and he did say he sanitised it. So that info is tainted with afterthought and consideration of possible consequences.

it would be nice if you could indicate the sources of your quotes.

Live unhindered readings are more reliable. Now some may say well Halt would not know his *** from his elbow with regard to the readings. Not true " so we are still comfortably s safe here" - no contradiction from Nevilles or anyone else. You cant say that unless you have an understanding of limits.

Now - there are two other snags in your understanding.

[...] To clarify radiation is a wave of energy.

only in the case of gamma rays. See link

2. You are using radiation readings as a whole. And lumping the understanding of units into one system.

no, that's wrong. I used the units which they used, i.e. mR/h. You equalized rem=r which is only true for gamma rays (q value= 1), so I borrowed that in one instance.

Also to consider is the inverse square law which has not been considered at and to do that would be negligent in all matters. The inverse square law states that if you have a radioactive source thats fine. However if you double the distance from that source you quarter the dose received. Now it does not become any less radioactive. Not at all. However it reduces the dose and possible damage that you will receive or measure for that matter. So clicks from the meter aimed at the UFO which was 5 to 7 miles away , assuming they accounted for background - thats quite a bit lol.

of course exposure to radiation decreases with distance from the source unless the source is all around you (like air). But IMO the fluctuations measured could just as well have natural/ terrestrial causes.

And Stephan you missquoted me in the respect that you focused on the website remark. That was something we have all done - the factor was the values taken were from 1977 - which are not going to be as up to date as they should be in order to asses radiation related medical issues. However to quote a British Comedian Lee Evans - my eyebrows nearly fell from my face, when I saw the most huge error in your assumptions:


Stephan wrote - But still 500 mR would be totally harmless.


no, I did not missquote you. I did not change a word. And ''my assumption'' was solely based on what I read in the list which I had no idea was from 1977 (btw, where do you have that from ? The page says it's from 1994 ?!) and that an alleged official site would show wrong data. If you want to keep on belabouring this interpretation
most huge error
, well, enjoy. I don't care.

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Re: Rendlesham Forest Incident - Radiation Readings June 201

Postby Storm » Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:54 pm

Okay -

it would be nice if you could indicate the sources of your quotes.


virtually every documentary that features Charles Halt explaining about his memo.

only in the case of gamma rays.


Yep I was generalising to explain the difference between contamination and radiation. In the respect that Contamination is a surface (dirt, metal, paper, hands, anything) that has some form of particulate radioactive matter on it. I thought you stated that they were contaminated when talking about being irradiated . . . I could go look where you said that I suppose. But anyway thats why I mentioned it.

no, that's wrong. I used the units which they used, i.e. mR/h. You equalized rem=r which is only true for gamma rays (q value= 1), so I borrowed that in one instance.


No, I was referring to Ian R's statement that: as the term used was millirem and the meter read in milliroentgens it shows a possible mistake with regard to understanding the units used (or something equally superior). And I said in the original post that it should be known that they are interchangeable when talking specifically about gamma. I dont remember nor understand the term - rem = r or what you mean by equalised. I converted millirem into the moder SI unit as you should do in order to make understanding more simple and accurate. You mentioned: I think it's a bit confusing with all the units (sievert, rem, roentgen, gray and whatnot) and I was clarifying that you have to be careful especially as you find it "confusing", if your going to say things about what you think they did or did not get with regard to dose and how harmful or not it was. Hence not lumping all units together as if they all mean the same thing and just have older or younger names. Cause they dont mean the same thing - hence conversion equations and things like quality factors. Fairly important thing to know considering your talking about a hazard to health.

1977 was my error, I hit the link, it opened up on a list not your list. I saw the date first and discarded it due to the date alone before reading what was on it. Had I bothered I would have seen my error. Scrolling down brings you eventually to "your list". It states it is from a NBC handbook and therefore not be taken as a ready reference unless in the presence of an exploding nuclear bomb. There are better sites with regard to effects of radiation exposure short term like your list and long term. Nuclear bombs have certain radioactive isotopes but not necessarily the ones the airman came across.

If you want to keep on belabouring this interpretation - 500mr/hr is harmless


Yep I do. Till it sinks in. lol. Because. . . .

well, enjoy. I don't care.


. . . but I do.
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Re: Rendlesham Forest Incident - Radiation Readings June 201

Postby Admin » Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:25 pm

In an interview with Linda Moulton Howe released today, Nevels said the following (which I think is most definitely relevant to Strom's article):

Monroe Nevels: “We checked the background radiation before we ever went in and it was very minimal. When we got into the site of the landing, I took a look at the spots on the ground, the tripod depressions. I also had an alpha radiation monitor. I don’t recall using it, but I do know that when I used the AN/PDR-27 (portable radiation detector) that we did get readings after we went back out to the forest.

That measured beta and gamma radiation?

Yes. I did take the beta shield off and checked it and I did not catch anything. It was all gamma.

So, when the silver tube shield was off to look for beta, you didn't get any radiation reading, but when you were measuring gamma radiation, that's when it pegged on the .5 meter and on the 5 meter it was hovering around 7 (milliroentgens)?

Right. You start at the 500, which is the strongest. If you don’t get a reading on 500, you drop it down to the 50 scale. Then if you don’t get anything on the 50 scale, you drop it down to the 5 scale. Then if you don’t get a reading, you drop it down to the lowest point that is the .5 scale.

So you started at the highest level and what happened?

Nothing. So then I dropped it down to the 50 and I still didn’t get anything. I dropped it down to the 5 and I noticed the needle was twigging a little bit. So, then I dropped it down to the .5 and it blasted all the way over to the right, pegging out of the range.

When I got to that point where the needle started jiggling, I got excited. And I told Col. Halt, ‘Yes, we’re getting some readings.’ I was basically relaying my information back to Col. Halt.
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