RADAR Development

[Observer]

Puddle
I totally concur with your last post. Recent posts have contained realms of scientific quotes off the internet about this system or another that MAY have been the cause of the RFI, i would think it far more fruitful to look at what was in the forest, why was it in the forest and who was responsible for it being there? There is nothing wrong in airing these scientific scenarios on the forum as they are interesting to read even though there are glaring inaccuracies in many of them. No attempt has been made in practical terms to link them to the RFI, thus they are circum perpetual.

Find the evidence that forms a theory, don't try to fit partial evidence to an existing theory until it is overwhelmingly obvious. [Met Police training Collage, Hendon] We are a long way from that.
Obs

[John Burroughs]

What if they were testing a new weapon and we were not ment to be out there. They may have been using drones and even ships at sea. Or they may have been trying to bring down the Sat out at sea. They never intended it to come down over the forrest. The drones were being used to look for the part of the Sat that held the data and maybe it got knocked down by what they were using. What Robert is posting shows we were working on that kind of Tech which some people asked if we had that kind of ability. Obs sorry but what they had on the Civ side compared to the military was not even close. And after what I have seen from the late 80"s untill I got out blew me away and I am sure it was just the tip of the ice berg. As far as linking this to RFI that will take some footwork and more digging into Gov files. Back in Jan somebody posted the site that had Sat dishes and it the Sat dishes had a direct line towards Woodbridge. Right away it was decided it had no ties why. As you can see with the global Hawk things go on from different areas not just one. And the way it is done took years of work to accomplish. They started using it in the first gulf war. Either what happened to us was man made or it came from somewhere else. Most people on this forum feel it was man made so what did we have that could cause the effects we observed?

[robert]

ELF/EM is just a theory OBs
As are all posts here including our favourite lighthouse theory.
I don't understand your concentration on this particular theory as being significant in any particular way?

Puddle.
In 1980 ELF was in it's infancy and research was ongoing and not proven. By 1982 it was in full use. It does not use line of sight radar as it bounces the signal off the Ionosphere and back down to recievers that are connected in some instances by a 148 mile long cable. The Radar Range is something like 2,500 miles.

The fact that it was in it's infancy in those days quite possibly would mean initial and unforseen mistakes could have been made.

Planes shooting out of the sky because they were working 24/7 probably not as this was not working 24/7. ELF, (not the proven VLF,) was in it's initial stages of development.

'That leads to the problem - would the US test a highly classified weapon off base on foreign soil? Almost certainly not.'

Again NATO was developing this system in conjunction with the US and as the Warsaw Pact was on the UKs doorstep I would think an ideal place for developing the ELF radar would have been in the UK.

The Super NAVFAC base was in use at Brawdy from 1974. Any new development in Submarine detection would have naturally involved this base and the ELF Radar for Submarine detection was presumably being trialled for NATO purposes somewhere in the UK.

Would it not therefore be natural to conclude that the 'home of Radar' would still be involved it's ongoing development.

We are not looking for a 'flashing lights' Radar station at all.

From what I have seen of the photos in Wisconsin you would be looking at a site less than 1 acre in total.

Two sites are needed at a distance of approxomately 148 miles depending on the area of Radar cover you require.

The radar is not conventional in any way and can be buried in the ground or mounted on telegraph poles.

If it were above ground you would not know the difference between that and conventional telegraph wires.

I would say again, NATO were developing this in conjunction with the US Navy and it was at that time in it's very early development stages.


''That ELF/EM is somehow at the bottom of this and that this technology brought something down either by accident or by design, is entirely feasible. The problems are: exactly what technology, who 'owned' it, what did it bring down and why''

As to your last statement, Puddle I think that is surely what we would all like to know and what we are here for.

We will simply have to wait and see.


Robert

[Observer]

I'm not sure what particular theory you think i am concentrating on? I have many theories some of which i introduced on the forum. I have discounted none except the light house theory which was not mine in the first place.

You are the one that seems to be 'latched' on to one theory i.e. Radar ELF/EM etc. I happen to think there is more mileage in this idea, but then i have other theories that equally in my opinion need further investigation.
Obs

[robert]

Puddle
I totally concur with your last post. Recent posts have contained realms of scientific quotes off the internet about this system or another that MAY have been the cause of the RFI, i would think it far more fruitful to look at what was in the forest, why was it in the forest and who was responsible for it being there? There is nothing wrong in airing these scientific scenarios on the forum as they are interesting to read even though there are glaring inaccuracies in many of them. No attempt has been made in practical terms to link them to the RFI, thus they are circum perpetual.

Find the evidence that forms a theory, don't try to fit partial evidence to an existing theory until it is overwhelmingly obvious. [Met Police training Collage, Hendon] We are a long way from that.
Obs

I don't think that your quote in that it is quoted on this particular Radar Development string can be seen as anything but directed at this particular theory.

As regards ''no attempt has been made to link them to the RFI'' is quite wrong and inaccurate. I have said many times I am trying to establish a link between the use of ELF and interference that it may have caused to a downed craft of some description.

If I can find a proven link we surely wouldn't need a RFI discussion. As you say I am far from it. But to say no attempt has been made to link this with RFI is totally inaccurate.

Robert

[puddlepirate]

Robert / JB

I am very well aware of how advanced technology was 28 yrs ago. If anyone thinks Echelon is new - think again. It ain't.

The problem with experimental radar and ELF per se is that the sky, even in 1980 was full of aircraft of all types. There might not have been aircraft flying from the twin bases over the holiday period and possibly the RAF didn't have many aircraft up (but the RAF would have had a duty flight ready to scramble, surely), but the civilian airlines did and between Christmas and New Year civvy airlines are busy. There would have been dozens of them flying regular routes to/from all over Europe and to/from Eurpean airports to north America. Therefore, any experiment that brought down something had to be targetted at that something or it had to be a very localised experiment in a defined area. If that were not the case, there would have been all kinds of air accidents. If such experiments were being conducted in the UK then they had to involve a UK company (Marconi?) working in partnership with another perhaps US, company (RCA?). Orfordness is the home of radar. RAF Bawdsey was conducting experiments with 3D radars so stuff was certainly going on. It is known that CM involved experiments with high power OTH radar but it is also know that it did not cause air accidents, at least on a large scale - and that is why I am dubious about this element.

As for shipping movements either surface or sub-surface, in the North Sea as part of an experiment, well who knows? I am not aware of US ships being involved in experiments in our territorial waters but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. From what I know, joint experiments used to take place off the coast of the US - well away from prying Soviet eyes - although it is known that NATO submarines and aircraft used to regularly test Soviet defences but running up to their territorial limits (as Russia is doing with UK airspace today) and sometimes beyond. Thus if experiments were being conducted by boffins either on the 'ness, behind the wire at Benwaters or down at Bawdsey then I would expect them to involve coastal / covert forces not major naval units parked out in the Norh Sea. If they did that then they might as well have booked a full page ad in Pravda to tell the other side what they were doing and invited Pravda's defence correspondent along to witness the activity.

Personally, whilst I am open to ELF/EM theories, I believe the cause to be less to do with experiments with highly classified, highly advanced technologies but something much more mundane - but the fact that it might have been mundane in that it was not experimental does not mean that it was not potentially lethal and hugely embarrassing to both HMG and the DoD.

There is still the issue of the damaged landing lights at Woodbridge and the alleged prison alert. Landing lights get damaged when inbound aircraft hit them. Prisons tend to get evacuated when something is about to fall on them. If it was believed that something was going to fall on the prison, then that something would proabably have been coming in from the south. The aircraft that hit the landing lights was too low so either it had a problem or the pilot made an error. If the problem was something that caused the aircraft to lose altitude then the pilot might have had to ditch something heavy to keep the aircraft in the air. And that something might be what landed in the forest.

One last thing. The US had never really trusted our security. The US thinks our security leaks like a seive (at least, that's what I've read) so I doubt the cousins would be inclined to do anything really secret on this side of the pond. Also, we might be cautious about what we tell them. We invent stuff, the Americans develop it once we've revealed what we are up to (because we never have any money!) but I'll bet we don't tell them too much to start with.

[John Burroughs]

Puddle
Also one more thing Randles said that the ship out by the ness had there crews go underdeck for over a hour. I understand Randles has pulled that story back but when I ment Randles in Phoenix it was stated when she asked about it she was told that line of questioning could lead to somebody ending up at the bottom of the thames river. Also what about the fisherman being told to stay out of the area and the green mist. I not sure where the prison is but if its by the coast and they were brining somthing down from above would that not mean putting somthing on standby IE the prison. And is not christmas night one of the slowest nights for airtravel? Plus I no this for a fact we were told on the radio eastern radar spoted somthing on radar over us and then it just disapeared. That is why Buren let us go out there and that is where the airplane crash therory came from. We had to have a reason to go out there like we did. And what we saw and what was reported to us gave us that reason. The LT went direct with us on the radio on what to look for and what to do if we found a crash site. All we have is therorys right now and people with some knowledge in those areas but at least we have gotten past the lighthouse and the little green men and are looking at the right dates and possible causes instead of who was there and what dates. I beleive that is something they did not want or beleive would ever happen.

[robert]

Hi Puddle,

As far as I have been able to ascertain the ELF system initially used for signalling Submarines in Deepwater, was a forerunner of the HAARP system using the same principals of bouncing signals off the D layer of the Ionosphere.But also able to use the Earths natural magnetic field/Van Allen Belt to increase the range. I believe that it was not a blanket effect Radar where the signal would encompass a wide range at any given time but it was able to be concentrated, directed in effect, in a narrow beam. This is where the possiblity of it being turned into a weapon rather than just Radar came about.

Obviously a concentrated radar beam isn't going to knock out dozens of Aircraft but it was probable that it could have been used on experimental Drones or Enemy aircraft. The HAARP system which followed on from this used several different frequencies including ELF., As below:

http://foia.abovetopsecret.com/ultimate ... ations.pdf
Just released in the States under the FOIA.

The Radar was also reputedly used in Beam Weapon and Plasma Weapon technology which is now apparently old hat.

See the Contents Page.for list of Board members
Project Leader Paul Berhardt. Active Project Leader. Beam Physics Branch. Naval Research Laboratory.

It can also be used in all frequencies including Infra red and Visible.

There was a very big push for Anti Satellite weapons at that time. 140 had been launched in 1980 alone, mostly Soviet and any technology would be trialled to counter them. This was relatively cheap technology which would have appealed to the Military who had been constrained under the Carter Administration.


And Two other Projects they were trying out.You might appreciate the second one!

Project SPIKE was a 1970's suborbital conventional warhead ASAT air-launched from an F-106 interceptor. Considerable work was done from the early 1970s under the Missile and Space Defense Program. Research centered on the miniature homing vehicle (MHV) with nonnuclear kill capability. It seems to have lead to the 1980's F-15 launched ASAT of the same concept



Project Early Spring was a conventional ASAT launched by Polaris missiles from US Navy ballistic missile submarines.
Class: Military. Type: ASAT. Nation: USA. Manufacturer: Lockheed, NRL.

The principle was that the submarine could take a position under the path of the satellite. As it passed overhead, a Polaris missile would be launched with a peak altitude close to that of the target. The ASAT used a restartable upper stage to 'hover' for up to 90 seconds awaiting the satellite. An optical homing system would first locate, then track the target satellite. A datalink was provided to the submarine for control. Once committed, the ASAT would put itself on a collision course with the target. A proximity fuse would detonate a warhead with thousands of steel pellets. To assure a kill, more than one ASAT could be launched simultaneously by the submarine.

Early Spring was first presented to Congress in March 1961. By 1964 several alternate configurations were evaluated, and by the late 1960's the optical tracker was showing good results in tests. The project was officially cancelled in the late 1960's. However the same concept can be found in the Navy's manned Space Cruiser concepts of the early 1970's and 1980's.

[puddlepirate]

Hi JB, all

Oddly, the Christmas period is a very busy time for air travel in the UK...especially in the lead up to the New Year. Many, many people fly out for skiing holidays in France, Austria, Switzerland etc.. Those who live outside the EU might not fully appreciate just how busy our skies are but believe me, our skies are thick with aircraft. They were in 1980 and even more so now.

I agree, there have been reports of cars being affected by some kind of electrical interference in the Orfordness area but there is no concrete evidence of this.

From what I have read, ST is correct in his - or at least his quoted - analysis of OTH radar but it is not only military ships that carry dangerous or inflammable cargoes. As for 'green fireballs' - there have been reports from masters of British merchant ships that radar can cause phosphorescence in sea water. It is known that a Soviet satellite, or space debris associated with it, re-entered the atmosphere at about the time of the RFI. And so it goes on...and on ....and on.

Thus there is a whole host of information that can, in some way, be related to the RFI. The problem we face is that there is absolutely nothing at all that can be absolutely and without equivocation, attached to it.

However and at the risk of ridicule, I draw your attention to basics. A chap at Sudbourne stated he saw an 'upside down mushroom' hovering in the sky above his house; there was an Apollo capsule on base at Bentwaters/Woodbridge; the 67th ARRS used to use the capsule for recovery training. The last Apollo mission was in 1972 - a full six years before the RFI. So, the question is, why were the 67th ARRS still training with a capsule that had ceased to be used six years previously. Surely their role would have required training with current re-entry capsules?

it is known a Soviet space craft - or something associated with it - re-entered the Earth's atmosphere at about the time of the RFI

It is known something of importance but not of defence significance happened in Rendlesham Forest.

What if, and I stress what if, the Apollo missions had not ceased. What if covert Apollo missions had continued into the late 1980's. What if what the guy at Sudbourne saw was an Apollo capsule suspended beneath a parachute(s)......and what if the object that came down in the forest was not the practice capsule dumped there as a prank but an actual capsule that had been in collision with the Soviet debris and as a result had been damaged or knocked off course. landing in Rendlesham Forest instead of the Pacific? This might sound utterly stupid but I fail to see why the ARRS continued to train with an apparently obsolete piece of kit. That does not make sense. If they continued to train with it, it could only be because that kit was still in use.

[puddlepirate]

Thanks, ST...

It could be the most ridiculous b*ll*cks ever but after my last post it suddenly struck me we could be overlooking the obvious and that it was staring us in the face all the time...

I thought why the f**k would the ARRS be training with something that was six years out of date. Then I thought about the Cosmos re-entry malarky - and then the Sudbourne thing. That led me to thinking about the alleged hoax with the Apollo capsule and then I thought, what if it wasn't a hoax at all but a real Apollo capsule that nobody knew about but which had been in a collision with the Soviet debris.....

[Observer]

Puddle
Good theory and very plausible, i knew the ARRS were in there some where.
Obs

[Observer]

ST
You make some good points about why are they still covering it up and it was hardly a hanging offence. It probably was at the time, but i wouldn't mind betting that the old red telephone was in action after the event between the White house and the Kremlin. Sorry about that old chap, but our guys didn't see your guys and they had a prang in orbit. We've recovered your capsule in the East of England but one of your guys was injured. He is OK and in the base hospital. Kremlin says to White House, better keep this out of the media, so better invent a cover story. It was very quickly arranged to be of no defence significance and they [governments] are quite happy for us to continue the investigation which is some thing they are no longer interested in.

Guys, this is just a light hearted theory, but there just may be some truth in it.
ST, yes its funny how people suddenly join the forum when certain theories are posted. I have said a few times now that this forum i'm sure has been pretty close to what happened and that was possibly last year.
Put your thinking caps on.

Obs

[robert]

Apparently here were 140 Satellites launched in 1980. The vast majority of which were Soviet.

If those figures are correct I would think there would be a panic on to have a successful means of shooting them down in the middle of a Heightened Cold war.

Anything conceivably worthwhile will no doubt have been tried by the Boffins in Military.

Any collision up there would have been possible or it could have been deliberate.

The Americans would love the Soviets to know they had the capability to take out one of their Satellites.

Perhaps one of the Apollo Guys nipped out on a space walk and hit it with a hammer.

Robert

[Observer]

Puddle
Looking at what evidence we have so far that supports your theory.

1: Some thing came down vertically into the forest at a speed that never caused a crash or left any debris. That to me shouts parachute and i have always suspected this.
2: It was expected, which is why allegedly Hollesley Bay Prison and other local establishements were put on Evac standby.
3: The object Larry saw where he described lots of 'tiles' all over it fits with the design patterns of the Russian recovery drogue shutes used on re entry capsules. Seen at a distance it would look like a tile pattern.
4: The higher than normal back ground rad readings [which were very localised] were possibly from leaking isotope power supply systems on the capsule.
5: The light show and 'dripping' 'molten' metal described by Halt could have been some of its recovery/May Day systems going off which included pyrotechnics.
6: Beings in silver suits as described by Larry Warren were the crew.
7: Its size described by JP fits in with a manned orbital capsule
8: An upside down mushroom high lighted by puddle and seen by a local in the area could have been the capsule on its descent under the parachute.
9: The 3 indentations found on the forest floor were not the feet of the capsule but from the lifting tripod/block and tackle to lift said capsule onto some sort of transport. The capsule would be fairly heavy.

I will stop here as i think puddle can add to this list.
Hey every body, this is just a theory.

Obs

[John Burroughs]

Who do you feel joined when you feel after 28 years you have discovered what happened to us. I can tell you this much they would not have gone to this much trouble over a manned orbital capsule comming down. And like I said the 67th was not out there on our night so where were they. I agree somthing may have been brought down but with what and why that is a key to the government coverup. The article Silvertop posted stated somthing about Sat being brought down does anybody know anything about those Russian Sat and if they came down like it said.

[Observer]

John
It doesn't have to be a manned capsule that came down, it could have been a Russian surviellance sat that your guys brought down. May be with some secret weapon already up in orbit.
On the other hand was the craft that landed in the forest the actual secret weapon that the Russians had brought down, now there's a thought.
Obs

[puddlepirate]

Thanks Obs.

Don't worry JB...we'll get there. Lots of stuff to cut through first though.

Something tells me that the answer is staring us in the face and Obs list encapsulates much of it. Whether it was US or Soviet, manned or unmanned has yet to be established. However, a couple of things LW mentioned are:

the 'mission' patches - this suggests US not Soviet. The US loves mission patches.
presence of guys in silver suits - crew in flying suits / astronauts
the airman who had to be comforted - saw a very badly injured man or horrifically disfigured, dead body perhaps?

The problem, of course, is that the Apollo missions ceased circa '72 or so we are led to believe. The issue here is if that was so, then why did the ARRS continue to train with the capsule. This suggests that something else was going on.

JB has stated that the ARRS were not in the forest.....if something came down it would be their job to be involved so perhaps they were there but in a different part of the forest. Beyond the road block perhaps? Going about their business unseen. Is it possible that part of the op to disguise the recovery was to entice personnel into a different part of the forest by deliberately creating a light show to attract attention, then induce some kind of hallucinatory effect using drugs of some kind - apologies if that sounds way too bonkers but, well, I don't know. Could that be possible? It is known that the US have tried similar things on unsuspecting service personnel in the past. If the RFI was important enough, would they do that?

[puddlepirate]

For those interested in OTH radar.. The link below is to a parliamentary debate/questions in the House regarding OTH radar as recorded in Hansard. Scroll down the page to the heading 'Over the Horizon Radar' - it's about halfway down but the topic then continues over at least two pages.

http://www.parliament.the-stationery-of ... ens-6.html

[robert]

RE ELF

Navy officials had become interested in ELF radiation back in 1958, when they learned that radio waves oscillating just above the 60 Hz range could penetrate seawater sufficiently to provide communication with deeply submerged submarines. Because the wavelength of such a signal is nearly 2,500 miles, it was feared at the time that ELF transmitting antennas would have to be unduly large. This problem was solved, however, by Nicholas Christofilos, a brilliant Greek-born physicist working for the Department of Defense, who suggested that a portion of the earth’s interior could be used as a launching pad to propagate ELF signals. During the early 1960s, Christofilos’s concept was successfully tested, and in 1969 the Navy and the RCA Corporation built an ELF test facility near Clam Lake, Wisconsin, by burying twenty-eight miles of insulated cable in the low-conductivity granite bedrock of the Chequamegon National Forest.
Soon thereafter, the Navy proposed to construct a 22,500-square-mile antenna system [by] burying 6,000 miles of cable in bedrock elsewhere in Northern Wisconsin and in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. The idea was to form a giant grid so that electric current generated by transmitters would pass through the antenna cables and flow deep into the earth along the bedrock, creating a global ELF radio field [NB: it would certainly be an electromagnetic wave, but definitely not a “radio” wave!] extending up to the ionosphere [which] would reflect a portion of the ELF field into the world’s seas and oceans.


Robert

[robert]

THE WORLD’S LARGEST
“RADIO” STATION

by CARLOS A. ALTGELT

FIRST MADE PUBLIC by the US Navy in 1968 as Project Sanguine (1), the Extremely Low Frequency communications project—Project ELF—is designed to communicate with deeply-submerged submarines. Project ELF uses low-frequency waves to signal one-way coded messages to US and British Trident and Fast Attack submarines. The system alerts them to surface to receive a more detailed communication.

Project Sanguine would have made use of some two-fifths of Wisconsin in the construction of a giant ELF transmitter capable of being heard all over the world. A committee set up to investigate possible biological effects vetoed the concept.
A new variant, Project Seafarer, was next proposed. Again, the system was halted. Finally, Project ELF was approved and can now broadcast at frequencies between 30 Hz to 300 Hz.
Project ELF, which became operational in 1989, consists of two transmitters, one near Clam Lake in Northern Wisconsin, and the other at Republic, in Michigan’s Upper Peninsula. (Actually, Michigan’s antenna intersection is located east of Republic, while the transmitter site is in the Gwinn area nearby, with no settlements of any size between the two towns.)


At the outset, Project Sanguine was to require 240 transmitters and a total power requirement of 800 megawatts with a current of 100 amps. The total land area needed was estimated at 20,000 square miles (about the size of Belgium and Holland combined). In the end, the power required for the Michigan and Wisconsin sites was reduced to less than 5 megawatts and eight acres for the transmitter sites.

According to Lowell L. Klessing and Victor L. Strite, “The reduction in land area and power required was made possible mainly because of a scientific breakthrough reported in November 1969. The nature of the breakthrough was never made clear. The discovery allowed smaller transmitters and 90% lower space requirements.