CIA using us

[Observer]

Wow,

I like the theory, i said all along it was a man made incident. Just how did the DU ammo get into the forest? All the experts including those not involved with this forum will tell you that there was no flying on the days/nights in question. Unless the ammo was dumped there prior to the incident.
Could it be that DU ammo was smuggled into the forest by a some dissident air men [it beggers belief how] and left there for Russian spies to pick up, but it all went pear shaped, hence the cover up. I find my theory hard to swallow as the Americans are so patriotic.
What chemical burns like dripping molten metal [as Halt described], perhaps some sort of flare or even a fire work? We need to pursue these issues.

Radioactive mist etc, i have not heard of any body who attended the incident in the forest having health problems associated with radioactive contamination. Even Penniston who got the closest to the 'object' looks fit and well on recent interviews.
No body over the years has ever said they wore NBC suits at the incident.

Its well established that there was no air crash [my friend went into the forest only a week after the incident and he said the forest looked just normal] he did though find a USAF issue flash light in the under growth near one of the alleged landing sites and it had a red filter over the lens. He still has it today.

Observer

[puddlepirate]

Definitely not an air crash, only an incident involving an aircraft diverted to Woodbridge for an emergency landing - which it executes safely but takes damage on final approach. I'm fairly confident I am now getting very close to what actually happened but I am not going to post anything more on here. If I am right then it is most definitely need to know - and explains why 'you can't tell the people'. This isn't pomposity or 'I know more than anyone else' tosh...it's just me being sensible. However, the rest is pretty plain to see if you think about what is known, including what is known about the area. Forget UFO's and aliens and focus on what is known. Col Halt and his men are not fools, neither are they liars. In Dec 1980, they were competent, well trained servicemen doing their job and obeying orders. There is a saying that goes along the lines of 'take away what is known to be impossible and whatever is left, no matter how improbable, must be the truth'.

[Observer]

Hi

Graham Haynes of the Bentwaters cold war museum may be able to throw more light on the possibility that an aircraft was diverted to Woodbridge and landed during that period.
He will i suspect be able to tell us about the 30mm DU shells carried by the A-10 and when aircraft were armed or not.

Also whether this alleged aircraft dropped accidentally or deliberately some ordinance into the forest. It doesn't have to be an A-10 or DU ammo, it could be something far more deadly?

Were the 'aliens' in silver suits as described by Larry Warren just airmen in NBC suits?

[Observer]

Hi
One small point to my last post, it whatever this object/s was in the forest, all 3 alleged landing sites were not under the flight approach path so if it did 'fall' off an aircraft on finals, the aircraft was way off centre line of the runway by several hundred feet!

Don't forget the A-10 was not a nuclear weapon patform, so if this new theory gains momentum, we need to look at other aircraft that either the USAF, RAF or other had that were nuclear platforms?

Observer

[Deep Purple]

Definately seems to tick a lot of boxes the DU rounds theory, brings together elements of the ARRS , and CIA theories, I'm liking it---- good work/ thinking people!
Should admin start a new thread for this one?
Theory seems to have making of plausible accident / event and plausible reason for cover up
I 've seen a wharthog a few times but would have loved to see one fire that big gun!

[puddlepirate]

Just a few bits and pieces:

Read up on DU and its effects on ground troops, surface contamination etc etc then look at the penetrating power of each 30mm round (incl concrete and armour plate), then consider what lies to the north of Orford and what lies to the south. Then look at a possible disaster avoidance plan for an inbound, fully loaded A10 with probs maintaining height or other malfunction. Worst case scenario, it hits Sizewell A. Also bad is it ditches off the coast. Not very good at all is that it hits Orford town. That would really ruin Christmas. The A10 can fly with massive damage and power loss so an alternative might be to route it to Woodbridge on a track south of Orford (to avoid the town) but over HMP - hence the evac alert.

It might even be that the pilot didn't accidentally clip the trees but had to ditch the gun and ammo to maintain height or effect a safe landing, at least one that didn't go up with too much of a bang - and the forest seems a good place to do that on approach to Woodbridge if you want to minimise risk. DU is heavier than lead and the Gatling gun around which the a/c is built, is heavy. The recoil is equal to half the forward thrust of the engines. Also, DU must be stored as low grade nuclear material.

I believe I'm right in thinking but am happy to be corrected, that Bentwaters stored nukes in the WSA, so the last thing you want when having a few Crimbo beers with your mates is a loaded Warthog suffering snags, banging into the racks right outside your front door. That might just dampen the party spirit somewhat. So, you let your neighbours down the road handle it, after all their place was designed for unexpected guests.....

[Observer]

Some interesting theory there and it needs more investigation.

Anything to do with aircraft and their movements at both bases is best put over to Graham Haynes.
Yes, only Bentwaters stored nuclear weapons, they were in the catigory of theatre weapons or in other words small Kiloton weapons.

If it was an A-10 in trouble on finals to one of the bases it was not according to my info from either base, but it could have been from a German base. I'm not sure they can jettisson the entire gun from the aircraft or indeed its entire ammo mags, but again Graham Haynes needs to enlighten us on this.

Hollesley Bay prison is no where near the approach path from either end of the runway so would not be in imediate danger from a crippled aircraft on finals.

Yes, perhaps admin can look into these new theories and start a new page.

Observer

[ghaynes]

Just a few bits and pieces:

Read up on DU and its effects on ground troops, surface contamination etc etc then look at the penetrating power of each 30mm round (incl concrete and armour plate), then consider what lies to the north of Orford and what lies to the south. Then look at a possible disaster avoidance plan for an inbound, fully loaded A10 with probs maintaining height or other malfunction. Worst case scenario, it hits Sizewell A. Also bad is it ditches off the coast. Not very good at all is that it hits Orford town. That would really ruin Christmas. The A10 can fly with massive damage and power loss so an alternative might be to route it to Woodbridge on a track south of Orford (to avoid the town) but over HMP - hence the evac alert.

It might even be that the pilot didn't accidentally clip the trees but had to ditch the gun and ammo to maintain height or effect a safe landing, at least one that didn't go up with too much of a bang - and the forest seems a good place to do that on approach to Woodbridge if you want to minimise risk. DU is heavier than lead and the Gatling gun around which the a/c is built, is heavy. The recoil is equal to half the forward thrust of the engines. Also, DU must be stored as low grade nuclear material.

I believe I'm right in thinking but am happy to be corrected, that Bentwaters stored nukes in the WSA, so the last thing you want when having a few Crimbo beers with your mates is a loaded Warthog suffering snags, banging into the racks right outside your front door. That might just dampen the party spirit somewhat. So, you let your neighbours down the road handle it, after all their place was designed for unexpected guests.....

Hi Puddlepirate,
An A-10 pilot cannot 'ditch' the gun or its ammuntion. The aircraft is built around the gun and its a pretty major job to remove it. The ammunition (inc. the spent cases) is contained within a drum at the back of the cannon.
Depleted uranium is used purely because of its high density and, therefore, it's ability to penetrate armour. A-10s carry/carried a mix of DU and HEI (High Explosive Incendiary) ammunition during wartime. Inert training rounds were/are carried on training missions.
Regards.

Graham

[ghaynes]

Some interesting theory there and it needs more investigation.

Anything to do with aircraft and their movements at both bases is best put over to Graham Haynes.
Yes, only Bentwaters stored nuclear weapons, they were in the catigory of theatre weapons or in other words small Kiloton weapons.

If it was an A-10 in trouble on finals to one of the bases it was not according to my info from either base, but it could have been from a German base. I'm not sure they can jettisson the entire gun from the aircraft or indeed its entire ammo mags, but again Graham Haynes needs to enlighten us on this.

Hollesley Bay prison is no where near the approach path from either end of the runway so would not be in imediate danger from a crippled aircraft on finals.

Yes, perhaps admin can look into these new theories and start a new page.

Observer

Both bases would have been closed for operational flying over the time period we are looking at. Incidentally, an A-10 returning from a FOL in Germany would not have been loaded with 'live' weapons.
Regards.

Graham

[ghaynes]

Not an aircraft crash that's pretty certain. But if we focus on what we actually know - or at least is most likely to be true, i.e. SP in the forest, senior officers in the forest, report of 'mist', report of geiger counters (of the type associated with weapons grade radiation) being used, report of the prison being placed on evacuation alert, damage to tree tops, damage to landing lights at Woodbridge. High probability of bird strikes with low flying aircraft.....all that stuff, then compare that with what is most unlikely - UFO landings, aliens, lighthouses and so forth, then reality suggests an incident involving an aircraft. The only aircraft that was known to use DU ammunition was the A10. The A10 was slso fitted with a higly classified (in 1980) piece of kit, also slung underneath the fuselage. It has been stated that no aircraft were being flown from Woodbridge/Bentwaters during the Christmas/New Year period but it is known that Soviet tanks were massed on the Polish border. It is known NATO was very interested in what the Soviets were up to. It is known the A10 was/is a tankbuster. It is known DU ammuntion is used against tanks. It is known that Woodbridge was originally designated an emergency landing airfield. It is known DU ammunition, when detonated, gives off radiation and a radio active mist. The A10 also carried target marker flares. It is almost certain but not known that if the local / UK population became aware of some kind of accident involving ammunition that gave off a radioactive mist etc, happening in Rendlesham forest then almost certainly there would have been uproar. It is a fact that senior officers do not get promoted for charging around forests in the middle of the night, claiming to see 'odd lights' and aliens - they get retired, pdq. They do, however, get promoted for a job well done. DU rounds are relatively small, so was the classified kit. To find both in the forest without raising suspicion would require an intense search, a sustainable cover story and nightime activity lasting more than one night. To ensure the area was safe would require a sweep with gieger counters, soil samples and the like...and radiation fogs film - as anyone who put their camera through an airport x-ray machine in the late 70's and early 80's knows.

I understand but have not yet seen evidence of, that DU rounds burn with an intense flame and emit 'sparks' - like molten metal perhaps? I also understand that an A10 coming into land is quite quiet (plus the Doppler effect).

Perhaps the SP at Woodbridge were not those who advised Bentwaters of the 'odd lights' perhaps instead, they were tasked to get into the forest asap and secure the area....perhaps the 67th ARRS were tasked to get out there damn quick and find the stuff, retrieve it then check the area for levels of radiation....perhaps Col Halt was tasked to think up a story to cover the sudden activity....and of course MoD stated it 'was of no defence signifigance' simply because they had been informed and knew exactly what was going on.

Of course, all of the above is pure conjecture and not supported by hard evidence but I believe it to be more likely than UFO's coming down to earth. If that really had been the case, you would not have been able to move for scientists, press and gawd knows who else. It would have been the biggest event ever and there would have been no need for secrecy.

Over to the forum....

Hi again Puddlepirate,
Woodbridge was only an Emergency Landing Ground (ELG) during World War II. During the 80's, the nearst MDA (Military Diversion Airfield) would have been Wattisham.
Don't think the DU theory is worth pursuing really.
Regards.

Graham

[puddlepirate]

Hi Graham

I agree. My comments were based on research of published info, an analysis of the area from OS maps and similar, a summary of the prevailing political situation plus a couple of visits to the local area but there is no hard evidence to support anything I've said, at least not in respect to Rendlesham.

Most likely it was the Apollo capsule dropped into the woods for a joke by a flight crew playing games. Probably covered it in plastic and set off a couple of fireworks as well, just to add to it. The guys might even have dressed up as aliens for a laugh......SP were probably in on it, after all who, when going on watch as a gate guard or sentry, takes a 35mm camera with them unless they are expecting something?

The only question is, given the weight of the capsule, how did they get it into the woods without being noticed?

Incidentally, did any A10's ever carry cameras as an external fit? I understand that a common problem with the A10 was an intermittent fault with the attitude indicator device - often causing disorientation problems for the pilot when flying at night. Those in service in the 1980s also lacked cockpit HUD (so flying at night meant flying in the dark) and were only fitted with a rudimentary GCAS. Was this so? As these q's are off topic, feel free to PM any response. Thanks.

[ghaynes]

Hi Graham

I agree. My comments were based on research of published info, an analysis of the area from OS maps and similar, a summary of the prevailing political situation plus a couple of visits to the local area but there is no hard evidence to support anything I've said, at least not in respect to Rendlesham.

Most likely it was the Apollo capsule dropped into the woods for a joke by a flight crew playing games. Probably covered it in plastic and set off a couple of fireworks as well, just to add to it. The guys might even have dressed up as aliens for a laugh......SP were probably in on it, after all who, when going on watch as a gate guard or sentry, takes a 35mm camera with them unless they are expecting something?

The only question is, given the weight of the capsule, how did they get it into the woods without being noticed?

Incidentally, did any A10's ever carry cameras as an external fit? I understand that a common problem with the A10 was an intermittent fault with the attitude indicator device - often causing disorientation problems for the pilot when flying at night. Those in service in the 1980s also lacked cockpit HUD (so flying at night meant flying in the dark) and were only fitted with a rudimentary GCAS. Was this so? As these q's are off topic, feel free to PM any response. Thanks.

Hi again Puddlepirate,
The only time A-10s carried cameras was during their development programme at Edwards AFB. All A-10s had HUDs from Day 1, they just weren't night-capable (as you stated). This was the reason why Fairchild Republic tried to develop a two-seat night/adverse weather version of the A-10. Would have to check up on the GCAS but I thought that it was added as part of the LASTE upgrade in the early 90s.
Regards.

Graham

[Observer]

So we could be back to the Apollo command module theory which i initially thought.

The shape and size of the module fits in with Pennistons description. The 3 indentations in the forest floor look like they were from the 3 feet on the module. According to one forestry worker i spoke to, even when below zero and the logging tracks are frozen hard, sheltered areas remain frost free and still relatively soft.

All we need now is for some one to put their hands up and explain how they did it.

Observer

[puddlepirate]

Hi Graham

Thanks again. The A10 certainly is an interesting aeroplane.

I suppose my only q's re the Apollo capsule are:

a. given its weight, how did they get it into the forest unnoticed
b. wouldn't it have been instantly recognisable for what it was - surely Col Halt would have recognised it
c. why so many people in the forest and why the convoy from Bentwaters
d. what about the beam coming down onto the WSA
e. what about the feelings of disorientation reported by a couple of the witnesses
f. 'here it comes....' wasn't that what someone in the forest heard over r/t
g. wasn't there some mention of the device suddenly bursting into many balls of light
h. for a prank to be truly successful, only very, very few need to be in on it and it needs to be completed quietly. Surely humping something that weighs over a ton from an airbase to the middle of a forest would involve a truck at the very least. Hardly quiet. And you'd need to know a bit about the logging roads - access points, where they led to etc..

To support the theory are the depressions matching the dimensions of the capsule and the fact that someone unknown has sent an email allegedly substantiating it. However, generally speaking and from my own experience, pranks tend to be spontaneous and don't involve too much effort. Too much effort and it becomes a planned diversion, not a prank.

Sometime in the 1980's I was on a course at a Royal Naval establishment. At the end of the day just before I left the classroom I wrote 'BOTTY' in large capital letters on the wall mounted, rotating chalk board - one of those that has three faces - and moved the section I had written on so it was hidden. The insturctor had a habit each morning of coming into the classroom and as he passed the board, grasping the metal bar that separated each part of the chalkboard and pulling it down to expose a clean section. The morning after I wrote on the board he did his usual thing and the word 'BOTTY' was displayed, much to the mild amusement of the class. The intstructor immediately stated there had been a break-in and a security breach. Before I could own up he'd got hold the Royal Marines at the guard room and they immediately started to seal the building. Ooops. I put my hand up to what had happened and promptly found myself at the skipper's table attempting to explain my weird sense of humour. Even carrying a guy asleep in his bunk, down the barracks stairs and leaving him on the lawn outside was a spontaneous bit of malarky undertaken by a group of five of his colleagues after a run ashore.....planning never came into it, it just seemed like a good idea at the time! To shift the Apollo capsule seems likely to have involved planning. Perhaps planning a prank in advance is an American thing.

Lastly - the number of accidents involving nuclear weapons or nuclear material on UK soil, involving both UK and US forces, is astonishing:
http://www.tridentploughshares.org/article727

In 1956 at Lakenheath (from the source quoted above):

At a US base on 27/7/56 near my home, at Lakenheath in East Anglia, fuel from a B-47 bomber caught fire and engulfed the nuclear weapons store. 4 crewmen were killed and officials described the outcome as a ’miracle’ because ’the sheared and exposed bomb detonators somehow failed to explode’. A senior US officer was quoted as saying ’It is possible that apart of eastern England would have become a desert’. [Ref.1]....

Let's leave as a prank involving an Apollo capsule....I'd much rather sleep at night

[redsocks]

[quote="Observer"]So we could be back to the Apollo command module theory which i initially thought.

The shape and size of the module fits in with Pennistons description. The 3 indentations in the forest floor look like they were from the 3 feet on the module. According to one forestry worker i spoke to, even when below zero and the logging tracks are frozen hard, sheltered areas remain frost free and still relatively soft.

All we need now is for some one to put their hands up and explain how they did it.

Observer[/quote]

I think the Airmans story is starting to show some cracks,Looking at the capsule photo and what I heard from my mate I am convinced this was a hoax.Didnt Penniston mention the surface of the "craft" looked like the "surface of an aircraft" which would fit in with the capsule,Pennistons scribbled drawing looks like a capsule,the indentations fit the capsule all we need like observer said is someone to own up.I think the fascination for me is why the Airmen originally said and still say it was a UFO and have elaborated on the original hoax.I can only think like I previously posted that they did and are still using the UFO story to cover something up,but what is it that the military need to cover up that has gone on for nearly 30 years?.Also and I have to be carefull what I say here but my buddy and others that know and have known the whole time it was a hoax are still reluctant to come forward.....but why, well I asked him and got a smile and told it was a military thing.....
Redsocks.

[puddlepirate]

In the trailer for the programme to be broadcast on the History Channel on Dec 26th. Penniston and another witness give the following information:

"....the colour you get from titanium and fuel burning.....triangular object approx 9ft wide by 8ft high......warm to the touch.....glass like........fabric of the the craft is illuminated.....odd symbols 3ft wide....."

"...emits a blinding flash, moves up.....then back aways, over the trees.......very fast"

I am not saying the Apollo capsule theory is wrong, far from it - it just surprises me that nobody recognised it immediately but instead several sensible, experienced, security policemen, including the deputy base commander, come up with all this stuff about a craft emitting light, being constructed of a glass like material, suddenly taking off in a flash of light and moving away at extraordinary speed. It just does not make any sense. There was no security or other risk with the capsule. Almost certainly there would have been annoyance at a senior level but that would be all. There would be no need for secrecy. Even if the press had got hold of the story all they would have printed would have been 'US Airmen in UFO Prank" or "My life with UFO prankster: Gorgeous blonde US Airwoman, Serena, 20, 36-24-36 Reveals all...and we mean, ALL! p22" and if asked, surely the base commander would have issued a simple statement to the effect "There was a prank committed by several US airmen from RAF Bentwaters/Woodbridge The prank involved placing a module used for local pilot recovery training, into Rendlesham forest on the night of 26/27th Dec 1980 then reporting it as UFO. At no time was there any risk and all personnel involved in the stunt have been severly reprimanded. Ends." It would be a non-story.

Way too much detail and planning for a simple stunt involving a heavy piece of kit that is usually left lying around an airbase, surely? And what about the mention of aliens standing or hovering in a pool of light next to the craft? And the report from the villager who said somethng about an inverted mushroom shape hanging in the air above his house......

I don't know. The Apollo capsule theory seems very likely until you look a bit deeper and examine the practicalities and the subsequent reaction. We might be looking at two events here: 1. An incident that required cover up 2. The Apollo capsule being used to initiate that cover up by creating a diversion.

The other thing that troubles me is why were USAF personnel taking charge of this. It was off base, in UK sovereign territory, yet no mention is made of UK personnel being involved. Warren mentions a C130 from Ramstein landing a few days later and taking away various items recovered from the forest.....none of this makes sense if it was simply a prank with the capsule.

Perhaps the lady doth protest too much......

[puddlepirate]

Apologies everyone...me again! This suddenly occured to me. It takes ages for aircraft of any type to get from drawing board, through testing into production. One thing I have not heard mentioned with regard to this incident is stealth helicopters. There has been a lot said about these infamous 'black helicopters' - usually in relation to cattle mutilations in the US - but what if the 67th were testing a couple of these locally. Not sure where this would fit in but if rumours are correct and they are indeed silent, then they might have been in the air and could account for red lights moving around in the sky, light beams on the WSA etc. - and keeping with the Apollo capsule theory for a moment, one could have come down and another could have been used to drop the capsule in the forest as a diversion whilst the first one was recovered or repaired (hence the suddent take-off perhaps?). Flying secret aircraft at night (not necessarily based at Bentwaters/Woodbridge but perhaps not too far away) is fairly common practice and given the role of the 67th ARRS, then they would be the sort of unit to use them for real. What better time to fly one of these than over the Christmas / New Year period when few people are around.

Perhaps I need to get out more or lay off the booze.....

Merry Christmas.

[redsocks]

Hi Puddlepirate, Theres no way the USAF would have held there hands up to this as a prank,believe me it would have been kept hush hush thats the way the military operate.As for the capsule being off base do you really think the USAF really give a dam about that,we are talking Americans here and so much as I like them they do think the planet is US of A :) It seems strange that the incident happened between the capsule in storage and when it was displayed outside the ARRS building.If that capsule was a replica then the thing would have been well heavy,how was it moved to ARRS HQ? was the prank done then when it was moved to the HO which must have been done by chopper. Also the Airmen said the "UFO" went up into the sky,dont you think that what ever put it there was lifting it up again? you rightly mention what the Airmen describe but are they telling the truth and like I said before if this was a hoax why does nobody else want to come forward and tell the truth,we have had snippets but nobody whats to come clean as it were.Is it possible Halt may own up in the upcoming documentary on the history channel,I believe Halt was in the uk recently I would love to seen the guy on a lie detector with someone waving the capsule pic in front of he's face,
maybe thats the way to get to the bottom of this :) People will want to belive the "little green men" theories its human nature but like ive stated the interest for me is why the cover up.
Redsocks.

[puddlepirate]

Hi Redsocks.

I'm happy to accept the Apollo capsule prank theory but have certain reservations about it and the more I consider it against witness statements, the practical difficulties of executing it and the huge amount of activity that followed, the greater those reservations become. It's a good theory but it doesn't quite gel somehow. It leaves too much of that which is known, unexplained. To be truly effective, the best cover-ups and diversions are always based on some element of truth. Thus it is a matter of examining everything that is known. Not just the witness statements but all int - be it from witness statements, maps, aircharts, air ops, aircraft, available weaponry, weather, time of day, time of year, role of 67th ARRS, role of SP...everything. Then filter out what the witnesses have said that maps to what is known to be true or what is most likely to be true. It is important not to try and bend evidence to fit a particular theory but to be guided by the evidence to whatever conclusion that might establish - however unlikely. Also, sometimes if the truth is discovered, it is much better not to reveal it. In the affairs of the military and the defence of the realm, there is frequently a bigger picture.

[Observer]

Hi all

Perhaps [as the article says] the capsule was dropped into the forest from a HH53 deliberately and it was not a prank. Perhaps the reason as explained in the article is for all the cover up.

When Halt says there were beams of light shining down onto the weapon storage area, one assumes he means Woodbridge as Bentwaters was a couple of miles away. Others claimed it was because there N weapons stored there. Lets get this clear, there were no N weapons stored at Woodbridge.

Observer