further thoughts on Rendlesham Forest [later access shafts]

[john hanson]

Hi just to say thanks first of all to Jan for allowing me the opportunity to ask the readers if they would be prepared to contact me with any information re the Rendlesham Forest Incident which is as fresh in the mind of Brenda Butler as it was over 25years ago, she i still showing film crews and interested parties around the Forest (at her own personal expense) who are as eager now as they were then to examine for themselves the location designated by Colonel Halt and Larry Warren.(Hi to Larry by the way!)
One of the readers mentioned about Sutton Hoo, how many of you know about an ancient barrow or Tumuli which lies in the forest ? that was surounded by trees, now cut down
there was also a report ( I have it somewhere) of a number of ancient graves found, which
tells us this area (formerely Sutton heath)contains many such ancient sites, then there is another location at the side of Boasts field which I understand was an ancient site, now used by scramblers (motorcyclists) place is now wrecked. Look forward to hearing from anybody, out there. John Hanson and Brenda Butler.

[Observer]

Hi John
I lived in the area for many years and i don't think apart from Sutton Hoo that there was anything special about the area concerning ancient burial sites, Suffolk and Norfolk plus Essex all had their share of these sites as did a lot of West country areas. In fact most English Counties did. However, if the implication is that these sites are responsible for paranormal happenings then that is way out of my area of interest.
Its a pity Brenda hasn't joined us on the forum as that would be great.
Obs

[BEE]

Hi John

I would be very interested in contacting Brenda Butler to get her opinion on the tree in the link below.. I believe, having read her account in 'Skycrash' that she and Dot Street had strange car behaviour not far from the place where the tree stood.



http://www.culture-crop.com/rendleshamforeste.htm

[Observer]

Bee
There was some talk by locals that the electronic ignition systems on vehicles, mostly cars played up or died in a certain area. This happened only ocasionally and it has never been proven. I asked a pal of mine who works at the Maltings not far from rendlesham and he said he had never heard about this, which is strange because his dad runs a local petrol station/workshop.
Onserver

[john hanson]

Thanks for the information,The incident involving the Ford Cortina Estate Mk1car took place while Brenda and Dot Street were on their way to meet witneses when the car started vibrating and picking up speed,estimated to be 60-70mph, after half a mile the vehicle came to a stop but started again. A similar route taken by a Lada in 1982 by
SCUFORI Members who had visited the location revealed no similar problems.
Interestingly according to Dot Street she gave the location of the landing site as being
362 488 on the OS map 169. Although Brenda was to later deny this was the landing site
in a letter sent to Probe Magazine, this location is identical with the spot designated by
Colonel Halt rather than in the opposite field as described by Larry Warren, not forgeting their seems to be plenty of landing sites!
Il havea look at the tree and sicuss it with Brenda, as far as the 'ancient ' connection is concerned, having exmained over 2-3K of UFO sightings over 14 years, I can honestly say
that 99% of what I have lookd will occur near ancient sites, barrows,and roamn roads
will tell you more about the 'Apports' next which I have experienced myself! Facts are stranger than fiction!

[Observer]

I don't think the incident with the Ford Cortina Mk 1 is related to other incidents that i heard about concerning ignition or other malfunctions.
The Corbox Mk I had no electronic or solid state systems that in the early days of those systems would be susceptable to our side interference. All the Ford had was a standard distributor, points, condenser and coil. All of these componants are not corruptable unlike the early solid state systems that were.
Later production cars of all makes fitted with electronic ignition systems/management systems were 'hardened' against interference. The 'rumour' goes that vehicles in an undisclosed area of Orford were breaking down for no apparent reason and this was occurring occasionally [not regularly] over the period Cobra Mist was operational. Having said that, my pal who owned a local petrol station/workshop in that area had not heard of this problem. Bit of a myth i think.
Obs

[puddlepirate]

In the early days of my somewhat varied employment history I trained as a motor vehicle technician eventually becoming a registered Austin/Morris technician with British Leyland. By 1980 the MkI Cortina was an old car.

The Cortina was a Ford product. The MkII was introduced in 1967/8 so by 1980 even the newest of the MkI's was at least 13yrs old. As Obs rightly says the MkI had very basic engine electrics - battery, ignition switch, coil, distributor and within the distributor, a set of contact breaker points and a capacitor (aka condenser). I suppose it is possible that if the car were driven through an area of high electrical disturbance, then this might in some way affect the primary and secondary windings of the coil and thus the high tension output from the coil. This could result in the engine missfiring or even stalling because it would impact on the quality of the spark at the spark plugs. However, such interference would almost certainly be sufficient to affect other electrical equipment in the area, e.g. TV's and radios. Such electrical anomalies would not affect diesel engined vehicles because they are compression ignition, not spark ignition engines. An electrical anomaly might have caused a problem with the charging circuit - generator, control box, battery - which might in turn have caused a problem with the ignition circuit but other faults would probably have been evident if that were the case, perhaps a burned out control box or 'boiling' battery, burned out lamps or wiring. However, none of these would cause the car to acclerate of its own accord.

The MkI also had a very basic fuel system - tank, pump, carburetter, accelerator cable, pedal. There was no solid state stuff controlling the engine electrics or fuel system, much less any form of engine management system. Acceleration was simply a matter of pressing the accelerator pedal which, via a cable, operated a butterfly valve in the choke of the carburetter allowing more fuel/air mix to enter the inlet manifold. As engine speed increased it was necessary to advance the ignition timing and this was achieved by a set of bob weights fitted to and below, the distributor baseplate - as engine speed increased so did the speed of the distributor spindle, thus allowing the weights to spin out, moving the base plate in relation to the cam at the top of the spindle which opened the contact breaker points, thus advancing the ignition. There was a vacuum diaphragm attached to the distributor with a vacuum pipe connection to the inlet manifold. This was to balance ignition timing with engine speed / throttle opening.

Thus a fault with the ignition system would not result in the car accelerating of its own accord. Only a variation in the volume of air/fuel mix entering the combustion chambers would do that. There were faults, such as air leaks around the inlet manifold, that could result in the engine 'hunting' at tickover (hunting is a condition where air is drawn into the inlet manifold when the throttle is closed and the vacuum in the inlet manifold is high, The idle speed increases momentarily but as no fuel is drawn in, the idle speed slows again. This stops when the accelerator is pressed (and inlet manifold vacuum reduces) but as soon as the throttle is closed the process repeats itself).

The accelerator cable* was a 'Bowden' twisted wire cable, rather like the brake cables on a bicycle, contained within an outer sleeve. If the inner cable frayed it could stick as the frayed strands would not slide easily within the outer covering. If the car were moving, this could prevent the engine from slowing down when the accelerator pedal was released. However, releasing the clutch and applying the brakes would stop the car.

* can't remember if some models, depending on carb fitted, didn't have a linkage rather than a cable.

Vibration could be caused by faulty engine or gearbox mountings - or if the engine was suffering a missfire due to some problem with the plugs, points, coil, HT leads or even cyclinder compression. Even a suspension fault might cause unusual vibration.

Given the age of the vehicle, I suspect the problem was with the vehicle itself, not external factors.

[puddlepirate]

Further to my last: one very common fault with cars of that era was a poor engine earth connection. If the engine earth was corroded at the point where it was bolted to the body of the vehicle, the engine would 'earth' via the choke and throttle cables. This would cause the wire cables inside the outer sleeve to become very hot indeed - sometimes melting the outer sleeve. Consequently, the throttle would stick, the engine could missfire and there would be a smell of burning - in extreme cases the vehicle could catch fire. If this were the problem with this Mk1, the driver would suddenly find the car would not slow down when the accelerator pedal was released, there might be a missfire which would cause a vibration and there might even be a strange smell. Very disconcerting when it happens - and could easily make the driver believe that the car had suddenly acquired a mind of its own.

[Observer]

Puddle
You have said it all, enough, its taking us off topic.
Obs

[Observer]

Hi all
I thought i would recap a few points re LAEG. Firstly i do recommend you re read this book as i think there are many clues in it that we possibly haven't touched yet.

Some of the clues that i think were relevant on my first read gave me the Chevaline theory.
Art Wallace [AKA LW] when interviewed by Bob Smith on the telephone said, "It appeared to have a triangular shape and was covered with pipes and valves and things. It was about 20ft across the bottom and sloping sides up to the top 12ft to 15ft high". Thats no space ship from Mars! Check the Chevaline war head pictures.
Although the dimensions given are somewhat larger than Chevaline, it may be just poor judgement.
Larry says later in the book that it had lots of pipes and little boxes on it [not exact words].

Lt Col Halt mentions drippping molten metal falling off the object. Chevaline was known to contain some sophisticated pyrotechnic decoy systems.
The balls of light in the air led me to think that these could have been the other decoy system employed on Chevaline which were balloons [not your party type] filled with some special substance that were ejected on re entry from tubes on the PAC unit and were designed to confuse Russian anti ICBM's. The pyrotechnics did the same thing but at a different altitude. I suggest you re visit the Chevaline web sites to see if more correlation can be acheived.

The 3 entities in silver suits, were these just men in NBC suits?

The yellow fog/mist as described by LW could well have been Hydrazine. When escaping into a cold atmosphere it will hang around for a bit before dispersing. On a warm day it vanishes almost immediately. Hydrazine is highly toxic and can cause health problems and hallucinations if breathed in.
Its fact that the Chev had re entry manoevering rocket motors powered by Hydrazine.
The Chev PAC unit carried 2 nuclear weapons which were a slender pyramid shape and were heat shielded for re entry. This may account for Pennistons remark that they were smooth like glass, he also said the object was warm to the touch, this could well be the the onboard thermal heaters to keep the Nukes at a constant temperature. They must be kept warm apparently.
There are one or two more clues that i have omitted as this is getting long winded.
I ask, was this a Chevaline PAC unit sitting on the forest floor with all its decoy systems going off?
Any help to further this theory will be much appreciated. If some body finds that its a complete red herring, great, Am i Bovvered, we can move on to somthing else.
Obs

[Observer]

Hi Folks
Just a further point to add and a new twist to this theory.
Was it a Russian submarine launched missile and there's no reason to not believe it had a similar war head to Chevaline? Its also known that their sub launched ICBM's were much larger than Polaris. Was the funny Writing described by Penniston just Russian alphabet symbols?
Was it a pre emptive strike by the Russians or a Russian 'rogue' sub launch. They were on target if it was!
Was it brought down by the US, well they were expecting some thing apparently.
Was "You Can't Tell The People" realy this?
Obs

[john hanson]

Thanks very much for the information re the Ford Cortina, the truth of the matter is that I can only rely on Brenda and Dots version of the events, which took place matters that I have no reason to disbelive, one has to accept that as a retired Police Officer of 27and a half years experience of which I spent 15years in the CID,if any body had mentioned UFOS or the Paranormal I would have paid no attention. When Brenda first told me about globes of light being seen travelling along the forest tracks, I nodded and thought they must be imagining it, when I saw my first orb a milky white globe hovering about a foot off the floor just outside the barrier leading to East Gate, and photographed it I realised the this was no speck of dust, and although I went on to see other orbs nothing was so special as this one, way back in 2003.I then realised the signifance of what Brenda had shown to me both by way of 35mm film and Digital, matters again that I had rationally explained away, to myself! although personally I do not believe there is any connection to the apperance of these globes to the RFI of Dec 80.

[Observer]

John
During your intial introduction to this forum you mentioned that you are compilling lots of info on UFO's.
I would like to know where you stand on the RFI?
There is also another Policeman Gary Heseltine who has been in contact with this forum and me personally as he is in the process of compilling lists of UFO sightings. You both must know each other?
Obs

[AdrianF]

Given the age of the vehicle, I suspect the problem was with the vehicle itself, not external factors.

Puddlepirate,

Thanks for putting this one in perspective. As I said about the tree, this was probably one of those things, that while strange and bizarre at the time, in hindsight can be seen to be explainable.
By removing some of the the mysteries tied to the case, then it might, might be possible to move a bit closer to the truth.

I ask, was this a Chevaline PAC unit sitting on the forest floor with all its decoy systems going off?

John Burroughs or Jim Penniston would be the best to ask this question, as they were the closest to it. If it was a unit sitting on the ground, then surely they would have found the source of the pyrotechnics?

Cheers
Adrain

[puddlepirate]

My post re the Cortina was long winded but I believe it is important not to simply dismiss something but to give a reason why. Hence the lenghty explanation. Ditto the tree - but as both are seen as an irrelevance, even if analysis shows that hyrdazine was present, I'll keep the findings to myself. No point in posting information that is of no interest, even if it does take the investigation forward.

[Wolf]

It was about 20ft across the bottom and sloping sides up to the top 12ft to 15ft high"

The warhead unit on a Polaris missile (Booster, SFU and the warhead) is approximately 5' in diameter by 8' tall. No where near the size described by LW. This suggests that this was not what he saw. This would make the RV unit about 5' tall.

V/R

Wolf

[Observer]

Wolf
Good point, i was aware of the dimension descrepancy and this as far as i'm concerned is what says it wasn't the Chevaline PAC unit.
Trouble is, i know of no other piece of harware that fits LW description in particular the Pipes, valves and little boxes all over it that he described.
Just fantasising for a moment, Would you think that an extra terrestrial 'craft' from another Galaxy may be a million years ahead or us if not more would not only crash land but have pipes, valves and little boxes all over it, i don't think so. They would be way past all that mechanical stuff.

I still maintain that these objects in the forest were man made and if the Chevaline idea is a non runner then what else can fit these descriptions and observations made by the witnesses?
The easy answer is that the whole thing is a 'spoof' which will be actually harder to prove than if it was a piece of man made harware!
As puddle said some time ago, one object that fits the description in size and shape was the nose/cockpit section of the F-117 Nigh Hawk. Trouble with this is there is absolutely no evidence of an air crash which realy rules it out.

Obs

[john hanson]

Hi yes I know Gary Heseltine, he is the co editor, of UFO Data Magazine I hope he and Russ Callaghan will publish( as promised) an oustanding report which I inevestigated in October 2007, when two saucer shaped objects were chased by the RAF over Bognor Regis Suffolk,one of hundreds of cases I have looked at over the years, involving these objects, what people forget are the great waves of UFOS that occurred not only in the States and France but in the UK, matters that I have catalogued and re investigated, contained in five volumes, a project that has taken me 14years to put together, unfortunatly Publishers in the UK are not interested in publishing books on UFOS, one of the reasons is a necessary evil- the internet, coupled with a dearth of books published in the USA and the UK not forgetting the mass of documentaries all focussed on Roswell or Rendlesham, which have thrashed the subject matter into submission, now I have over 600 pages of UFO sightings covering the period 1977-1981, (UK) which tells you that there is life after the RFI. I will speak to Brenda Butler and aks her through me to give you an update on the RFI, when I see her next month,
she is of course in my opinion the leading authority on this case, and was an investigator for the East Anglia Paranormal Research Association, along with Ron West, long before the RFI was brought to her attention, if any one wants info on the Felpham case youcan always email me on johndawn1@sky.com. as I am a firm believer on getting the truth out there.

[IanR]

The incident involving the Ford Cortina Estate Mk1car took place while Brenda and Dot Street were on their way to meet witneses when the car started vibrating and picking up speed,estimated to be 60-70mph, after half a mile the vehicle came to a stop but started again. A similar route taken by a Lada in 1982 by SCUFORI Members who had visited the location revealed no similar problems.!

Your mention of the SCUFORI visit prompted me to look out a copy of the Probe Report published in April 1983 in which they wrote up their findings. JH has kindly posted this for me in the Downloads section and you can find it here:
http://rendlesham-incident.co.uk/downlo ... report.pdf
Remember that this was written before the Halt memo was released. Look for the unwittingly hilarious passage where one of the "men in black" turns out to have been Dot Street.

What comes across most clearly is how uninterested the locals seem to have been in the case back then, when it should have been fresh in their minds. But that was before it became famous.

Ian

[Observer]

John
I aggree that the Rendlesham Forest Incident and Roswell has been 'done to death' especially Roswell, but as far as the RFI goes there has never been a sighting witnessed by so many people in authority [USAF] than any other case. This gives it far more credence than a lot of others i could mention.

Having said that, there are a couple of other cases i am looking at but even these a short on reliable witnesses as compared to the RFI.
We get the odd 'copper' or two or postman reporting strange objects in the sky, even abductions but they are either always on their own or at best in pairs and no way comparable in the number of witnesses that the RFI can muster.
If as you and Brenda Butler say, there is some weird goings on in Rendlesham Forest then i would have thought the 'real' scientific community would be camped out there 24/7, but they are not!

Bogner Regis by the way is on the South coast in West Sussex, not Suffolk, but i expect that was a simple typing error.
Obs