Were they time travellers from the future?

[Frank]

The “time travel” discussion in http://www.rendlesham-incident.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=784&start=60#p7023 intrigued me, so I studied some stuff on the logic and the physics of time travel and tried to combine that with the information from Jim and John’s hypnotic regressions. Maybe this can be a nice start of a discussion.

The possibilities of time travel

Physicists agree on two facts (that seem to be contradictory):

1. Out timeline is immutable. Even if someone from the future would go back to our past and meddle with the events that happened there, this would not affect our timeline. Note that this is a solid logical fact that is independent of our knowledge of physics or how advanced our technology is (see below).

2. The mathematics of Einstein’s General Relativity permits trajectories backwards in time. To achieve these trajectories you need rather exotic space-time constructions. The “worm hole” is one of these constructions. Note that this is a fact based on our current understanding of physics, so it is less solid than the first one.

The first fact – our timeline is immutable – is not based on physics or technology, but based on logic. If our timeline is not immutable, we would live in a very strange world.
Someone from the future could travel back in time, kill Hitler, Napoleon, or some other figure who had a big impact on history, and this would suddenly change our current world. If a time traveler goes back to pre-history and kills the primates that later evolved into humans, all humans in our world would suddenly disappear.
So if our timeline is not immutable, every time travel tourist could have an immediate and devastating impact on our present world. This simply doesn’t make sense - logically, our timeline has to be immutable.

The second fact – the mathematics of Einstein’s General Relativity permits trajectories backwards in time – is a mathematical consequence of the model that Einstein developed to describe General Relativity. If you are fluent in mathematics, you can manipulate Einstein’s formulas in ways that yield trajectories that go backwards in time. A “worm hole” is one of the constructions to create such trajectories.


So the physicists have a problem here: How to reconcile these odd time mathematical trajectories backwards in time with the logical fact that out timeline has to be immutable? Now we enter a territory where the physicists do not agree…

I found three basic approaches to solve the problem:

1. These odd mathematical trajectories backwards in time are not equivalent to travelling to the past. The possibility of time travel is a misconception based on a wrong interpretation of the “time line” in Einstein’s model. The “time line” in Einstein’s model is simply a yardstick to measure the time at which a certain observer witnesses certain events on his local clock. It is not the same as a timeline in a history lesson.
A proponent of this solution is Mendel Sachs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mendel_Sachs
His article can be found here: http://www.compukol.com/mendel/articles/time_travel.pdf

2. These odd mathematical trajectories backwards in time do exist, but there must be undiscovered laws in physics that make them physically impossible. Otherwise nature would violate logic of our timeline being immutable.
A proponent of this solution is Stephen Hawking. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Hawking

3. These odd mathematical trajectories backwards in time are possible, but if you go back in time and change something you will “fork” the timeline and simply spawn a new universe with its own unique history. Our own history and our own timeline remain unchanged.
A proponent of this solution is Michio Kaku: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michio_Kaku

Note that the only solution that actually permits travelling to, and changing “a” past is the third one, but it would not be “our” past.


The possibilities of the RFI entities being time travellers

In the light of the above, I looked at the excerpts of the regression sessions with Jim and John – both can be found on Linda’s Earthfiles site: http://www.earthfiles.com/news.php?ID=1744&category=Environment
and http://www.earthfiles.com/news.php?ID=1745&category=Environment.

Jim’s excerpts are explicit about the entities being from the future, but seem to contain some statements that are not logical:
- The entities are worried about changing the timeline. Why would they be if their actions will not violate their own timeline?
- The entities go backwards in time as far as possible to prevent this. This may seem logical at first sight, but if you think about it the opposite is true: The further back you go in time, the bigger the potential impact of your actions will be. If I travel back one day and change a decision Obama made, the impact on the present is not that big. But if I go back to pre-history and accidentally set fire to the woods where the primates live that later evolve into humans, the whole of humanity will be wiped out.

John’s excerpts just contain a message that “they are us”. “They are from the future” is one of many possible interpretations of this message.

Of course we must not forget that this information was recovered during hypnotic regression, with all the pitfalls involved. Further, if this information is reliable it was the result of interpreting information that allegedly was telepathically conveyed by very advanced entities. Maybe we just interpreted it wrongly.


Were these entities really human descendants that traveled back from the future? You can never be sure, but given the considerations related to time travel and the illogical statements in Jim’s excerpts this is not very probable.

Does that automatically mean they were completely alien to us? No – there are many other possibilities and some of them would make sense of a message like: “we are you”.

[John Burroughs]

Frank
Here is the beauty of what you just wrote! You have looked at less than a min of Jim Hypnosis and only about 7 min of mine and come up with all of that!Both of our Hypnosis lasted more than 2 hours, you were not there in the field did not experienced what we experienced have not seen the whole tape of either of our Hypnosis! I realize this forum is open for debate and I'm fine with that but you want to know why we have kept most of what happened to us to ourselves your even braking down what they said and what it met! Here is the bottom line Jim and I will be coming over and in the forest on the 28th of December hoping to get some closure and to show anybody who wants to show up what we were going through and where we were that night! I have no problem with what you are doing Frank keep it up or what anybody else is trying to do! Good luck we have given you more than enough to chew over these next few months! For those who would like to get a feel for what happened and hear us talk about it we will see you in December! You can follow what upcoming on the justice for the men and women of the 81st on face book...

[AgentAppleseed]

Very interesting, I dont have time, at the moment, to go through the articles, but I will. I`m very interested in this, and even outside of this case Ive been very interested in this subject for years. I think the first proposal covering our misinterpretation of time as being linear, is golden. I couldnt agree more.
I think that we are in danger of misinterpreting what Jim Penniston was told, who himself may have misinterpreted, some, of what he was told. We have to remember this, because its a very important point.

[Frank]

You have looked at less than a min of Jim Hypnosis and only about 7 min of mine and come up with all of that!Both of our Hypnosis lasted more than 2 hours, you were not there in the field did not experienced what we experienced have not seen the whole tape of either of our Hypnosis!

That is exactly true, John, but:

you want to know why we have kept most of what happened to us to ourselves

we have given you more than enough to chew over these next few months!

and that is exactly my frustration: what we get from you and Jim is only tiny snippets of information, and most of the time we are only getting this info because someone else took the trouble of putting it on the internet. It almost feels like you and Jim do this on purpose to keep the discussion and the mystery of this case going. If you want help in finding out what happened to you, you should post everything you know and not give a piece of info here and there as it pleases you. And if you know more but are unable or not allowed to reveal it, just say so.

I asked you for instance if you can recall the full dialogue with the entities in the order in which it occured. I got nothing but "they said they were us". So then I decide to go on the info I have and the next reaction is "your info is incomplete, the hypnosis lasted for 2 hours". But still no additional info on the dialogue with the entities. How is this forum ever going to make progress this way? And if it is not your intention to get help from forum members to understand what you went through, what are your motivations for joining the discussions then? I just don't get it ...

I have no problem with what you are doing Frank keep it up or what anybody else is trying to do!

If someone posts a meaning on this case, complete with argumentation, that does not match yours, you react this way but give no counter-arguments why you do not agree. What exactly makes you disagree, John? What part of these two-hour hyposis sessions makes you think otherwise? That may start an interesting discussion instead of an argument.

[John Burroughs]

Frank
There is no arguing going on I just find it interesting that you could come up with so much with what little has been said! As far as the rest Jim and I will talk about that in December together in the UK !I have given out a lot of info over these past few years trying to explain what happened what we saw and how we felt about it. For now its best I save the rest until December.

[Frank]

There is no arguing going on I just find it interesting that you could come up with so much with what little has been said!

I can explain that: Just because the RFI is a little mysterious does not mean we can throw our sense of logic and our scientific knowledge out of the window and accept any wild theory. The time traveler theory simply does not make any sense if you think about it, John. Affecting one's own future by meddling with one's own past? It is logically impossible, not for us and not for other entities, no matter how advanced they are. I explained that above using my own education in science and physics and using the insights of many scientists and philisophers who thought about this. No need for RFI information to do this.

On top of that, I used what little RFI info I had and immediately found two logical faults in Jim's recollections. That, together with the solid logical arguments against the possibility to change one's own timeline, tells me that this information recovered under hypnotic regression is incorrect. Simple as that.

As far as the rest Jim and I will talk about that in December together in the UK !I have given out a lot of info over these past few years trying to explain what happened what we saw and how we felt about it. For now its best I save the rest until December.

I wonder if all of you can finally come up with a convincing and consistent story that matches the evidence after 30 years. A lot of my posts were meant to help you. But I feel a little weary, too: "Another promise .. but will they deliver this time?"

[John Burroughs]

Frank
First of all I never asked you to accept any kind of theory what so ever! I have just stated what has come out under Hypnosis plain and simple!And as far as time travel goes I do believe that scientist are changing there opions on if its possible or not to include the fact there was a very interesting piece on the history channel Like I said its what came out and once again its got to be wrong! If I'm not mistaken we were never going to be able to sail around the world because it was flat! I'm not trying to convince you of anything and my story has stayed consistent from the begining!Your feeling weary all you have had to do his sit back and take shots at what were trying to tell you we saw and had happen to us. We post some of our hypnosis we have had done there is a tape out that describes real time what happened and thats not good enough and could not have happened the way we said it did! Were the ones having to live with not knowing what happened to us not you! The only promise I made was we will be out there on the 28th of Dec to show anybody who would like to see the area we had the incident happen and talk about what happened to us! If thats not good enough so be it!

[Frank]

The only promise I made was we will be out there on the 28th of Dec to show anybody who would like to see the area we had the incident happen and talk about what happened to us! If thats not good enough so be it!

Were the ones having to live with not knowing what happened to us not you!

OK, your message is clear John. My ambition level simply is too high.

I would like to take the rather incoherent collection of witness statements, hypnosis recollections, and other evidence of this case and turn it into a rock-solid coherent and convincing story. Mainly because of my own selfish curiosity to know what really happened out there. If Jim really examined and touched a craft of unknown origin this is without any doubt and without any exaggeration one of the most important events in human history.

This takes a critical (not debunking) attitude towards as many facts as can possibly be gathered. Armed with these facts you need to put aside all theories that do not fit the facts or that do not make any logical (not technological) sense.

But there is a human side too. I know that this case has given you enough trouble already. I can imagine that you are not very eager to get involved in complicated and critical discussions on a public forum, or to share every aspect of this case here. I regret it, but I really do understand.

(You may find the following piece interesting. It is a summary of many possible explanations for the often reported humanoid life forms in relation to UFO encounters - the time traveler explanation is also included: http://www.uforq.asn.au/articles/humanoids.html)

[Ignis Fatuus]

If I'm not mistaken we were never going to be able to sail around the world because it was flat!

You might want to google Myth of the Flat Earth. It might surprise you about how long Humans have know of the spherical nature of our Planet. The real debate was size. The myth that the ancients and medieval societies had a belief in the flat Earth is very recent.
Repeat a falsehood often enough and eventually it becomes an accepted truth eh.

[Deep Purple]

JB--- its interesting that you are now telling us that you know more that what you told us all ready and are holding back on information.
In my world this would be what someone does when they are up to no good, perhaps you might like to enlighten us further.
And yes you dont have to tell us a darn thing--- but beleive me the skeptics will have a field day

[larry warren]

My 2 pence, on the above if i may, these events are not myth by any means, just alot of real things that happened to alot of people at diffrent times, ofcourse the feds had a field day with a number of us, and now the wittiness base has been divided
into who had a long military carrear and who dident, " and that dont mean Jack" and who blew the wistle first, and what researchers got there claws into the CASE this week, whos on what show, whos doing what confrence and so on and so on !i mean , goiung so far as to suggust that i changed the alert conditions on an air base just to get a picture is a classic ! but i still support this minority of people that saw what they saw ! sadly the previous has always been our dynamic and is influenced by SOME pro researchers of the events, SHOW ME SOMTHING NEW PLEASE ! , and Deep Purple, your right the skeptics will , and always have a field day with this, so i say again, SHOW ME SOMTHING NEW, because its become the most boring, AMAZING
serries of events that i know of. Your problems, are how the events affected the human condition, and thats all you or we will ever get close to. cheers

[John Burroughs]

Deep Purple
Skeptics will have a field day with anything thats has a UFO label. There are things that have not been talked about for different reasons Until a year ago my Hypnosis tape had not come out and now only a few minutes are now out there!Its very interesting to see how the Hypnosis has been looked at and how people have responded to time travel. There are some things that have not come out yet about how the investigation was handled but most importantly what happened on the 3rd night that Halt was out there! Sometimes you have to give people a lot of rope knowing they will hang themselves! If you go back and look the incident was first reported as happening on the wrong dates happening all in one night not 3 the times it started were wrong a LT Col by the name of Williams helped repair a alien space ship. Heck I even went on a ride on a alien craft on the 3rd night Halt said I was not out there but he had to change his story after you could hear my name on his tape! After having to admit I was there he said he called me on the phone while he was in the field!The interesting thing is this Col Conrad stated he does not know what happened to us General Williams said we were good men doing our jobs and didn't say the incident didn't happen. Most of the people involved were not relieved of duty for one night didn't have there PRP pulled and continued on with long careers retiring out of the military. There is more to come on the 3rd night which was the 27th into the 28th and it won't be boring. There is a old saying he who lives in a glass house should not cast stones.

[John Burroughs]

And one more note to Ignis Fatuus how come you can't use your real name? Could it have something to do with Folklore Dr Clarke!

[John Burroughs]

Like maybe spook lights written by Dr Dave Clarke! It is a very interesting read!

[John Burroughs]

Ignis Fatuus Fools fire in Latin I believe. Have you ever had a experience with spook lights before? If so can you describe what you saw!

[John Burroughs]

Another interesting read From the shadows Spook Light Road!

[tpreitzel]

Another interesting read From the shadows Spook Light Road!

It's a strange, STRANGE world out there. Actually, it's a strange world anytime a human's involved.

[John Burroughs]

tpreitzel
Goggle Spook Light David Clarke! Then look into what people have said about spook lights and there drawings they have made of the lights and i beleive there is even a picture or 2. This has happened in England in more than one place! The Mod has looked into it and cannot explain what it is! Ignis Fatuus is featured in Clarkes article claiming to have witnessed these lights!

[tpreitzel]

tpreitzel
Goggle Spook Light David Clarke! Then look into what people have said about spook lights and there drawings they have made of the lights and i beleive there is even a picture or 2. This has happened in England in more than one place! The Mod has looked into it and cannot explain what it is! Ignis Fatuus is featured in Clarkes article claiming to have witnessed these lights!

Interesting ... I'll look into this particular event, i.e. David Clarke's article, further. I haven't read his article yet. I was unaware of Spook Light Road just south of Joplin, MO, though.... interesting. I've spent considerabe time in OK ... I respect the people and love the view from Talimena Skyline Drive. Earth lights are frequently seen all over the world and are fairly common. Personally, I do NOT subscribe to the view that MOST of these bizarre earth lights are readily explainable in natural terms, however.

[John Burroughs]

Whats truly interesting is the description people have given on what they have seen the lights do both in the UK and US. That Both Scientist and the UK government have looked at it and can't explain it! Some people have said it could even be a portal or opening. The article Clarke wrote includes a person who is using the name Ignis Fatuus on the forum he had a experience with spook lights. Has anybody read clarkes article and other articles written on the subject? If so what do you think? And I would love to hear from the now famous Ignis about his encounter and its interesting his did not happen in the UK or US....