Psychology of cover-ups

[John Burroughs]

Again fair enough if your looking at in from a ailien stand point which everybody did right away. Plus they came out after the fact and what were they going to do with it tell there bosses ailiens landed!!Why did the date mistake not get corrected years before right when the story first broke? Also Williams flat out states he had nothing to do with this which does not add up to include stateing he would have not authorized the memo and I quote it had things in it we could not defend. That statement was made in out of the Blue. Now what if nobody knew what had happened at the lower levels and when they started asking questions like they did it was easy to handle it that way. Williams has stated somthing happened but not what people thinked happened. He also talked about time travel but if in fact at the lower levels nobody had answers or if somebody higher up would have sugested that would be the way to handle it and having the dates wrong would make it next to impossible to follow up. If some kind of agency was conducting some kind of test and you talked about the effects of electromagratic engery would the MOD know or could they not say of no defense threat. Plus would the Air force at out level even know?

[John Burroughs]

To take it a step farther our incident goes from unexplained to all of a sudden it was a craft Halts goes from lights doing strange things to Ailien contact and of cource a close encounter with a light house. Why? Decaro for Cnn did a piece on mind control right after Bentwaters and what to push are incident hard. Why would they shut it down if they could prove it was the lighthouse or stars. What I saw on both nights was not stars or the lighthouse sorry Ian and Dave. In my statement I stated we follwed a becon and found out it was from the lighthouse but that is not what Penniston and I came up on. It was also not the caspule from the base. The base was shut down on the first night I was on patrol before it happened. I beleive Halt has been used and wants to say more as he gets older but I also beleive he knows more than he is letting on. I also beleive he does not really know what happened to us. And when i say know I mean when you can't explain it or have reference to what you saw you can't say for sure. I beleive he knows somebody at a higher level does know why else would he go to Washington before the National press club and go on Larry King live. And don't say for the money because trust me when i tell you they don't pay that well to put up with the crap you put up with. All of us the witness are still searching for the answerers

[Observer]

Dave
On at least two TV documentaries, Penniston said he touched and felt an object that was pyramid shaped in the forest. He described its feel, its markings and its lights and its surface temperature.
Halt also said on at least one documentary that there looked like molten dripping metal coming off the object. No Ian i don't believe it was actually real molten metal, it was how Halt described it for the viewers.
I am also aware that Penniston made intial sketches and modified/changed them later with another set.
I am also fully aware that their initial statements did not mention these happenings so why did they mention them later. Or, are they over elaborating to make the doc makers happy?
Come on, we either believe these guys or we don't. If you don't believe them just come out and say it.
I happen to believe their initial statements which i took at face value as i can see no reason why they should tell lies.
As John Burroughs and Larry Warren said, none of us were there, so it is hard to imagine what they went through and any one who recons they can imagine then it can only ever be an educated guess.
It would pay us all to take on board what vortex said about cover ups and the psychology behind it.
Obs

[Observer]

It was the ALIENS who broke into Otley post office.

[John Burroughs]

Jim also said right away as we were walking back that he felt it was some kind of object or craft he was about 5-10 feet closer than I was. Plus he did draw a craft on his statement.

[IanR]

I happen to believe their initial statements which i took at face value as i can see no reason why they should tell lies.

Agreed.

Ian

[daveclarke]

Hi Observer:

Observer - there seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding between what we're saying and what you think we're saying. Lets try and make this simple:

* the original statements made by the five airmen dated 6 Jan don't mention pyramid shaped objects with smooth glass, symbols etched on the side, etc etc
Is that clear? Have you looked at the statements? Your comments suggest you're mixing up the original statements with things that were said years later. The two should not be confused.
* in those *original* statements - contemporaneous and dated 6 Jan 1981 - only Penniston even mentions a mechanical object; the others simply talk about lights.
* the stuff about pipes, pyramids, symbols etc emerged later when Penniston appears to have elaborated his story, possibly a result of his hypnotic regression sessions (as alluded to by John B).
* every time he (Penniston) appears on TV now the story gets better - now there's two or more landing sites, 600 witnesses, etc etc.
* John Burroughs who, he tells us, was with Penniston during this adventure says he just saw "lights", no solid object, and says that his buddy did not make notes etc

Based upon these fundamental contradiction, you tell me what I should believe?

It's not as simple as you want it to be: i.e. is Penniston telling the truth or not.

The question is: who should we believe, Burroughs or Penniston, as both were in the same place and yet have very different stories.

This is just one of many contradictions - I won't even go down the Halt and Warren stroy route, life is too short.

As for who is telling the truth, who knows, and these guys seem to be so keen to keep us guessing that at this rate we will all be dead and buried without being any wiser.

[daveclarke]

John wrote:

>What I saw on both nights was not stars or the lighthouse sorry Ian and Dave.

I don't believe I've ever suggested that what you saw on the first night (26th December) was a star or a lighthouse.

But it's pretty clear from the tape alone that there are elements of Halt's story (on a different night) that suggest he did see and misidentify the lighthouse and stars.

*Why* should the two incidents relate to the same phenomena? If 20 years experience on the flying saucer beat has taught me anything, it's that there is no such thing as 'the UFO phenomenon', there are many *different* phenomena - often totally unconnected, which are put together by us to produce the idea of 'UFOs'.

My position is similar to yours - what you saw, to paraphrase your own words an unidentified aerial phenomena, nothing more nothing less. I have my person ideas as to what that may be, which I have alluded to, but I retain an open mind and happy to change it if sufficient evidence emerges. So far I have seen nothing to convince me that a dose of healthy scepticism is necessary, indeed essential, when trying to make sense of a mass of contradictory stories as exists in the RFI.

The problem is, there are so many people out there with axes to grind, who want to force fit everything into a neat pigeonhole, be it ET spaceship, time travellers, cover-ups of some undefined military incident, etc that's there's little chance of looking at this objectively.

[Observer]

Dave
I simply wanted to know why in later interviews Penniston, Halt and others gave over elaborated accounts of their experience by adding on information that was not there initially. You suggest it was because of their drug treatment etc. totally possible but you can't prove it.
This is one reason why i only trust the initial reports as subsequant ones are suspect. This though begs the question, why would they make up these descriptions for later interviews, i don't think it was for money as according to our American friends, no body but the TV companies have made out of this incident.

I learnt over the years in my old job of interviewing witnesses that there were always large gaps in their story when comparing to other statements. We would though even with the gaps look for common denominators that would give us the bigger picture. We also found that many witnesses made up parts of the story to fill the gaps and often said what they thought we wanted to hear.
Could this be the case with our witnesses?

There is also the phenomena with agendas, many people on this forum have specialist skills/jobs/hobbies
and i'm no exception. Most will look at this incident from a perspective that includes their skills and knowledge and will apply them often to boost their argument. Expertise is a good thing but can be blinkered at times.
Obs

[robert]

Hi John,
I would like to know, if you can tell me John, why you were further away from the light or craft than Jim Penniston by some 10 to 20ft.

Was this because it all happened so fast or because you made a choice of being that far away. Was that decision based on fear of the light/craft etc?

Also I think you or Jim mentioned time seemed to slow down while you were out there.
How long were you out there observing the Light or craft?

Hope you can clear this up for me and if you have covered this before please forgive me as I am relatively new to the forum.

Cheers

Robert

PS John, In no way am I suggesting that Jim was braver than you by being nearer to it! I'm just trying to get some idea of your reaction to it and how you personally felt at the time.

[John Burroughs]

Robert
The 3 of us were stagered Jim in front to my left I was in the Middle and Cab as behind me to my right . That is the way we were going through the forrest. It did seem to slow down and it was only for a couple of Min before It went intothe trees and disapeared. Guys I to will be off line starting tommorow until the 19th of July. I will check in when Ican no I didnot have a run in with the law its Vacation time. I am going to the Mountains for the Forth of July weekend no Computer and then when I get I am going back to see my Mom and she has no Computer also. John

[Observer]

Have a good holiday John and see you when you get back.
Obs

[robert]

Thanks very much for the reply John, and as OBS has said have a good one.

Robert

[time4truth]

Going back to Obs question to DC re: jenny Randles" Nothing of Significance in RF"comment- her book "Time Storms" seems to suggest that she thinks mists\glows and missing time anomalies are a Natural Phenomena as yet unexplained! but admits cld be Radar \ Nuclear induced! ??? And SHE was with Brenda B and Dot St before!

[Observer]

It would be a pleasant change if JR came out and told us rather than others second guessing her reasons.
I've read Time Storms and there may be possible reasons within the text that may explain her 'U' turn but i'm blowed if i can find them, well not yet.
Obs

[Observer]

There is one piece of collective evidence that should be looked at in more detail.

Several of those guys out in the forest said that the atmosphere was 'electric', their hair stood up and bristled, time seemed to slow down and their movements seemed to be in slow motion with their shadows not matching their movements and they heard a low humming sound. I'm not sure why they would want to make this up unless of course they had all breathed in some odourless invisible vapour that was in the air around the scene which may have befuddled their minds temporarily? I can think of one gas that would do all these things, Hydrazine!
Obs

[robert]

Obs,
Re your above statement which I for one have heard mention of before.

Do we know that these observations were made before the drug induced hypnosis ,interogation (call it what you will).

I am just trying to establish the validity of these observations as someone will no doubt jump on the hypnosis angle in due course.

Also have we any idea who felt or experienced these feelings and observations?

I think, without checking, that John B may have been one and Jim Penniston another. first night? Not sure about Cab.

The Other night or nights, I can't recall Larry, Col.Halt or others mentioning this phenomena?

Robert

[Observer]

Robert
It was mainly Penniston but Halt also and some body else who i can't remember possibly LW who described those feelings/symptoms. This was while they were in the woods and the alleged drug therapy during de brief was some time after the 3 nights in question.
These descriptions are to my mind quite important as it indicates that there was more than one person experiencing the same thing at the same time. I can't for the life of me see why they would want to make it up which is why it should not be ignored. It was suggested on the forum a long time ago that drugs may have been the reason but it was refuted then and i refute it now for several reasons i won't go into here.

From research that puddle and myself have carried out off forum we have [but not proved] a couple of scenarios that could cause this phenomena.
Obs

[robert]

Your research sounds fascinating Obs.

An Electro magnetic field is an obvious one for creating the feeling I would imagine similar to static and there have been experiments where electro magnetic fields can induce interference in the Brain pattern.

But then you would have to ask what source would be causing these symptoms.

A standard light from any source is very unlikely, as is a meteor.

So are we back to something in close proximity, as the witnesses suggest or is it still as a result of post hypnotic suggestion as will no doubt be discussed by others.

If any of this is in the original statements by the witnesses it would take some refuting.

If however it is mentioned after the 'interviews' by the Military it will no doubt be viewed of as a possibly induced memory.

If however as you say, Halt felt these symptoms, who we are relatively sure has not been near a interview room?, then it would be dificult to deny that this was a real experience.

Robert

[Observer]

Robert
They said the atmosphere was highly electrostatic, the low humming noise was similar to the hum you get when standing under a national grid power line in damp weather, [my description].
Their hair stood up and bristled. We have looked at what could have caused this phenomena locally to the incident and came up with nothing. So if we believe Penniston, it was coming off the object he saw in the woods. However, these symptoms could have been induced by breathing in escaped gas that was in the local atmosphere from said object. Leaking Hydrazine fuel perhaps.

We must also take into account LW description of what he saw, "It had lots of pipes and little boxes over it and in another description of another object he said it looked kinda old fashioned but modern as well, not the exact words but will surfice. He also said when describing an object that it looked like it had lots of tiles all over it similar i guess to the tiling on the space shuttle nose.
If i was describing an alien space ship or alien encounter to some body i don't think i would be using those descriptions. I think Larry was describing a man made piece of kit which i think pissed off the USAF.
Obs