UFOs - Domain of the Strange

[tpreitzel]

Hello, folks.

Before possibly wasting everyone's time, is religion a valid part of this discussion on this forum? Why? Because I'm a devout Christian, probably similar to the beliefs of Mr. Warren's acquaintance that committed suicide. Personally, as a mature Christian, I respect everyone's opinion on this issue, but I'm fairly certain the UFO phenomenon in general is supernaturally "evil". Protestant canon has much to say on this subject along with other ancient texts, e.g. Book of Enoch. Is it possible that some of these craft and occupants could be from our future? Yes. Is it possible that some of these craft and their occupants are classic extraterrestrials as depicted in popular media? Yes. Is it possible that some of these craft are of human origin, but produced from reverse-engineered craft from elsewhere? Yes. However, I personally believe the majority of these craft and their occupants are physical manifestations of supernatural evil. * If so, how do we distinguish one from another? Answer: with great difficulty.

In light of my aforementioned remarks, is discussing the religious (supernatural) aspect of the UFO phenomenon welcomed here? I ask because I simply don't see any posts from this angle. If not, just delete my account and I'll continue to watch from the sidelines. I'm mature enough to accept the latter possibility as I'm about same age as the airmen involved in this unfortunate incident.

BTW, I retired from the USAF in the early 1990s. I thank God that I've never witnessed a UFO as far as I can recall, but I've most definitely had supernatural experiences, e.g. supernatural healing, objects appearing and disappearing, etc. I've personally handled common objects that were not present minutes prior to their appearance, and these objects were every bit as real as the "real" deal. In other words, our perception of reality is simply due to our physical being. Our perception isn't all encompassing. You can bet on the latter statement. Because of my experiences, I can fully appreciate the confusion that abounds with this subject and among the airmen involved in this incident. Can the surreal become real? Personally, I have no doubt nor does scripture.

* Conversely, I suppose that some of the craft and their occupants might be manifestations of evil and the majority of them might not be. No human truly knows.

[Daniel]

Hello there,

Back around 2005 I started to have strange dreams of Beings of Light and Beings of Darkness. Both groups would visit people. The Light beings would appear to people in the form they most felt confortable, but still show authority, i.e Doctors, Firemen, Police, Military etc. The beings of Darkness would remain hidden til the last moment and then possess the person they wanted.

Not sure why I drempt this, as I was more concentrating on my studies at the time and not ufology.

Like with any forum there are multiple ideas, and not everyone subscribes to every theory. But it's worth bringing ideas forward. There are many unexplained things out there, and someone's written experience might help somebody else.

My core belief is that these craft are man made. But I've encountered some ghostly activity in the past that makes me think of other possibilities.

[tpreitzel]

dan92,

Indeed, our perceived world via our sensory apparatus, i.e. the 5 senses, is strange and dreams are proof. Here's a question. Are dreams merely an incomprehensible replay of memories or something entirely different? Cases exist where people have physical evidence of being other places while asleep. [1] The longer I live, the more bizarre this "reality" becomes to me. Furthermore, I'm convinced from my personal experiences that dreams are the breeding ground for much of this activity, but most of this activity isn't consciously recalled. In my opinion, dreams are a window into an altered state of reality.

I raised the original issue of religion because any discussion of UFOs on a purely scientific level * apparently overlooks a vast repository of information about paranormal phenomena. Personally, I'd definitely classify UFOs in general as paranormal especially when telepathic communication and intelligent interactivity accompanies such events. In fact, so much information exists on the paranormal that this forum could quickly become unwieldy if another sub-forum isn't created to handle the religious and paranormal aspects of UFOs. Why? In order to thoroughly dissect this paranormal phenomena from a supernatural viewpoint, Protestant canon, other ancient texts, and even other religions must be quoted and debated. Some people are justifiably uneasy about considering options beyond what their senses perceive.


* Science: By definition a method of investigation limited by the sensory apparatus of humans whether extended by technology or not.

1. For example, while asleep recently, I heard in my right ear a moderately high-pitched tone (similar to tinnitus) grow rapidly louder and louder until the point that I felt myself begin to lose control of motor functions, e.g. speech. Since I personally know Jesus Christ, I managed to rebuke this event in His name with considerable difficulty and immediately regained control of motor functions, i.e. speech and movement. The tone immediately ceased as well. The event partially roused me out of a deeper sleep. Since I've had similar events previously, I automatically invoke the name of Jesus Christ today even when partially asleep. Strange? Unbelievable? Possibly, but other folks, e.g. http://www.ce4research.com, are working in this area of the paranormal and have had similar experiences. What would have manifested if I didn't have such supernatural defense? Would I have been abducted? From the literature on UFOs, the latter assumption is quite likely.

[Daniel]

Dreams are interesting as long as they can be trusted. So many forms of outside sensory data can manipulate what people dream, which may also change the way they think. Fearmongering on the Television News seems to be quite good at it.

However, I feel dreams has helped fill the missing time I had on 3 separate occasions, but I can't be sure how accurate they are.

[tpreitzel]

Dreams are interesting as long as they can be trusted. So many forms of outside sensory data can manipulate what people dream, which may also change the way they think. Fearmongering on the Television News seems to be quite good at it.

However, I feel dreams has helped fill the missing time I had on 3 separate occasions, but I can't be sure how accurate they are.

Yep, if humans step in front of a train at speed, they can pretty much guarantee being railroaded into the next life. Under supernatural circumstances, I'm pretty sure cases exist where the loss of life hasn't occurred despite the odds indicating otherwise. In the New Testament of Protestant canon, we have Jesus Christ escaping the mob miraculously on occasion as well as the case of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego in Daniel 3 of the Old Testament. Outside of canon, I'm pretty sure similar cases exist, but I haven't researched the issue so my assumption is purely speculative at this point. Personally, I wouldn't risk betting my life on it by testing God.

Now, the converse also likely exists, i.e. the supernatural manifesting itself to our physical senses, thereby science as well. However, the latter phenomenon is generally transitory compared to our normal state of consciousness. However, if an object, e.g. UFO, suddenly materializes out of thin air *, I'm pretty sure some physical damage will occur if it directly contacts a human.

Although a default state of consciousness exists based on our verbal conditioning and being, assuming that default state of consciousness can never be violated might be a dangerously wrong assumption. The airmen involved in the 1980 UFO sighting in Rendlesham forest likely understand this point all too well.

Although we can generally trust our default state of consciousness, we can't ALWAYS trust it apparently.

* As I've already indicated, I've personally handled objects that have appeared and disappeared out of thin air. If this object had hit me while present in our reality, I'd likely be permanently battle-scarred from the event if not dead.

[tpreitzel]

Phoenix Lights of March 13, 1997 and the Circumstances Surrounding Abductions

Flares all nice and neat in a row ... tell that to the witnesses of the events during the big wave on March 13, 1997.

BTW, has anyone seen the movie, Night Skies, with Jason Connery? IIUC, this movie is actually based on a hypnotic regression of one of the witnesses. I have a difficult time believing much of the screenplay is based on reality, but I haven't researched the claims.

I do have a theory that close encounters and abductions mainly (not always) happen to unwitting people without the spiritual protection of Jesus Christ. If the screenplay of Night Skies is even remotely accurate, these people's lives indicated they were sitting ducks for such an event. I realize this statement is highly controversial. Researchers like Ann Druffel maintain that "righteous anger" can work as well as a personal relationship with Jesus Christ in stopping an abduction. Personally, I doubt it. Some researchers insist that Christians are as susceptible to abductions as non-Christians, but these same researchers don't really know for sure. Only God knows His people as He sees motives as well as external appearances. Some researchers simply assume someone is a Christian by assessing appearances which is flawed as humans can deceive themselves as easily as others. If one assumes that all entities (human, non-human, and divine) have a limited free agency, one can easily see how all of these entities will abuse their free agency in varying degrees. Hence, the Holy Bible discusses fallen angels, hybrids (divine+human), humans, and non-humans (heavenly host which includes "obedient" angels). Can a Christian be abducted? I think so because of the abuse of the limited free agency or will. Apart from His personal sacrifice, God's highest gift to all of creation, i.e. human and non-human, is a limited free agency so why should He prevent the execution of the free will willy-nilly? Isn't an abduction a serious issue worthy of intervention by God? It certainly is. However, JUDGMENT could never be rendered unless an offense was allowed to proceed to some unknown conclusion. Hence, one can reasonably expect even Christians might be abducted under unknown circumstances, i.e. circumstances involving an unknown level of judgment on an act, even acts leading to the torture or death of the physical body. Can most of these acts be aborted prematurely? Again, I think so if the victim has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Actually, the theme of the Book of Revelation is simply God's judgment on the abuse of the limited free agency that He graciously granted His creation.

Abductions like the ones portrayed in Night Skies are simply too horrific to contemplate.

[tpreitzel]

BTW, I'll try to reserve my unorthodox comments to this thread otherwise this forum would be unnecessarily cluttered. Hence, my comments on UFOs and paranormal phenomena in general will cover a lot of ground here via a spiritual angle primarily.

As an additional note to my comments on the movie, "Night Skies", I add that the Holy Bible constantly stresses that believers not be primarily "yoked" with unbelievers either in marriage or personal life. However, unknown circumstances frequently bring believers and non-believers together. Notice in the screenplay of "Night Skies" that the sole survivor was the former soldier who was victorious over other demons, e.g. abuse of alcohol, in his life. By association with the other party, the sole survivor suffered the consequences and barely escaped with his physical life. The screenplay doesn't address this survivor's spiritual life, but he was obviously in the wrong place as unknown circumstances yoked the group together on that fateful night.

As far as the RFI, Larry Warren has talked about his immature Christian acquaintance who committed suicide over his psychological trauma associated with this incident. As a result of his enlistment in the USAF, unknown circumstances "yoked" this Christian together along with the remaining parties on one of those fateful nights. Hence, the Christian was now an unwitting party to an event which traumatized him into committing suicide. I'm not saying that other Christians weren't present during the RFI because I only know of the possible Christian mentioned by Larry Warren. Regardless of the circumstances, I am saying that Christians "yoked" with non-believers subject themselves to judgment reserved for other parties. Personally, as a Christian I distinctly remember an incident where I foolishly went along with a non-believer while working livestock on a ranch. In the end, I was victorious, but I could have spared myself the frustration by simply not associating with one particular individual.

[tpreitzel]

As far as the RFI, Larry Warren has talked about his immature Christian acquaintance who committed suicide over his psychological trauma associated with this incident.

Never heard about this. Which airman committed suicide? I think this is another RFI myth.

I'm pretty sure it's not a myth. I can't remember the source at this moment, but I'm fairly sure that I heard Mr. Warren state so either in recorded audio or video. I'll try to locate the source. I'm pretty sure that Mr. Warren will verify my remarks, though.

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=682&p=6174#p6174

[tpreitzel]

Bill Bean, guest of George Noory on C2C AM May 7-8, 2010:

Note to myself to complete thoughts on the subject of possession and exorcism and the relationship to UFOs. Although the movie, the Exorcist, was loosely based on true events, the movie was highly fictionalized. In the opening scenes of the movie, the priest performing the exorcism warned his assistant to ignore the evil spirits living within the possessed person. [1] If one accepts Protestant canon as truth, one can also accept the likelihood that Lucifer is the father of lies. Lies without elements of truth are hard to sell. The unfortunate victims of the RFI should keep in mind that forces more advanced than humanity aren't necessarily more altruistic. In other words, should a human believe "aliens" simply because of their advanced state of being? The non-canonical book of 1 Enoch very directly warns the reader otherwise. Many unfortunate victims of paranormal phenomena relate their impression that these entities seem to play a "game" of cat and mouse. Unfortunately, the human victims are the mice which strongly indicates the ungodly [2] nature of these entities, i.e. Predator-lite. IMO, with the exception of the Holy Trinity, entities of ALL types lie and deceive. As stated in previous posts, entities have a limited free will to wreak havoc and wreak havoc we all do whether conscious of it or not. Lastly, people don't need human priests to exorcise evil. Priests attempting to perform exorcisms subject themselves to unnecessary risk. Genuine exorcism only occurs through the name and sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

If the reader really wants to glimpse the true nature of supernatural forces through the eyes of an unwitting victim, listen to Bill Bean (http://www.billbean.biz) or read his books, Dark Force and Delivered. Throughout all my years of life and investigation, I'm personally convinced these forces which include UFOs exhibiting paranormal characteristics are manifestations of evil. Bill Bean has shocking stories to tell the world while offering permanent hope of deliverance through the sacrificial lamb of God, Jesus Christ.

"Every now and then a book comes along that you just can’t put down. Dark Force is among those books. I have read many true life stories, but not since reading Jay Anson’s Amityville Horror has a story stayed in my mind. Hour after hour and day after day." - Tim Kelly

[1] I need to review this movie, the Exorcist, again. My comments are from long-term memory.
[2] Predation is related to ungodliness in the sense of a fallen world separated from God. Predation became necessary for survival upon separation from God. The danger for humans lies in assuming humans are the most advanced predator simply because we apparently dominate the earth.

[tpreitzel]

I'll be addressing the issue of "time travelers" in this segment ....

[tpreitzel]

George Knapp is scheduled to talk with Nick Redfern tonight on Coast to Coast AM ( www.coasttocoastam.com ) about an angle of the UFO phenomenon that the majority of "investigators" want to sweep under the rug:

"UFO researcher Nick Redfern joins George Knapp to talk about a secret group within the U.S. Government known as the Collins Elite. They believe our purported alien visitors are deceptive demons and fallen angels who are reaping and enslaving our very souls, and paving the way for Armageddon." - Coast To Coast AM Website

[tpreitzel]

Merry Christmas! No politically correct, "Happy Holidays" greeting from me. I continuously thank the Lord Jesus Christ for His selfless advent and sacrifice for the sake of humanity. Few subjects demonstrate the likely need for a supernatural victory against supernatural evil more clearly than UFOs and other paranormal phenomena...

[tpreitzel]

On Sunday evening of December 26, 2010, George Knapp had an interview with Dan Smith, an alleged insider with "secret" knowledge about the "message" from several visitations of non-human entities. Dan basically said that humans are co-creators with "God" over our future and these visitations are part of the "end times". Furthermore, Dan states that he's one of the "chosen" people to disseminate the message that humanity is in the end-times and that humanity should work with "God" to create our future as depicted in the millennial reign of Jesus Christ. Furthermore, I found it strange that Dan talked about the need for human participation with "God" to create a "better" future when he referenced our global currency problems. Anyone with the slightest familiarity with scripture knows that the mark of the beast is associated with currency. Lastly, Dan said that some people question his view that this "end time" message is from God and might rather be symbolic of the rise of the "anti-Christ". I agree that his message is straight from the pit of hell and here's why:

Frankly, the idea that man is a co-creator with God in constructing some alleged paradise in the millennial reign of Jesus Christ is totally non-Biblical. History and scripture constantly reiterates that man is subject to deception and thereby incapable of creating anything of redeeming value. Actually, this dangerous concept is necessary for the rise of Anti-Christ because Lucifer NEEDS the willing participation of human patsies to consolidate it's power over ALL humanity, not the one true God depicted by the Holy Trinity. So, what will this unholy alliance between these likely false messengers and human patsies "create"? Well, the Holy bible answers that question with a depiction of the tribulation. Personally, I can't think of a better way to sucker humanity into willing participation with Lucifer into this UnHoly Trinity than by enticing man to participate into the creation of some veritable "paradise" on earth. No, such a creation won't be paradise on earth, but rather hell on earth until Jesus Christ comes to stop the raving deception and total obliteration of Israel along with much of the earth. The group working at CE4 Research, http://www.ce4research.com, has heavily looked into this scenario and my conclusion is similar to their conclusion, i.e. we're entering a end-times deception promoted by people such as Dan Smith through his "inside" contacts. Watch out, people!

[tpreitzel]

On Sunday evening through early Monday morning, Feb. 20-21, 2011, George Knapp (the only really decent host on C2C) interviewed John Alexander. The interview was pretty straightforward and I agreed with most of the discussion. However, I never ceased to be amazed at the number of people who honestly believe that science, a concept based on human perception, will ultimately reveal the secrets of the universe. For the umpteenth time, I'll say again that science by definition can NEVER reveal the "secrets" of the "universe". Science will only reveal concepts which are capable of being conceptualized and analyzed by the sensory apparatus of humanity whether extended by technology or not. * Won't humanity's creations such as robots be able to function autonomously one day? Even IF robots are capable of functioning autonomously and develop a creative capacity exceeding humanity, humanity's conscious perception will still be as limited as always. In other words, we, humans, see what we've always seen and will continue doing so unless radically altered. Even IF altered, humanity's perceptive ability will STILL be limited although it will be different. The real conundrum lies in trusting what we perceive 100% which is where God steps into the picture. The Holy Bible stresses the evilness of idolatry, which is basically trusting anything other than the real God 100% of the time, not 99%. Although an extremely important issue, for the sake of my point, we'll leave the issue of the "real" God out of this picture. For example, if a human acts 100% based on his or her sensory apparatus, then that human has committed idolatry in the eyes of God. So, if you trust 100% your sensory system to protect you while performing any mundane task, e.g. crossing the street, you have committed idolatry. Granted, I've had a lot of difficulty over the years grasping the importance of not relying 100% on my own perception. After all, one can "always" safely cross the street or not depending on the existence of larger, faster objects described by humanity's consciousness. Humanity's dreams seem to be the main area where perception takes on a different twist from it's conscious, waking state. Humanity should thank God that dreams tend to be more ephemeral than our conscious state. Even our dreams are filtered through our sensory system if not directly spawned by it. Is there a potential source of creativity that frequently spawns dreams? If there is, watch out! You'll know the source by it's works. Examine closely the effects of technology and other inventions. It's taken me over 50 years to realize the importance of idolatry as depicted in Protestant scripture. I'm more convinced than ever that humanity needs to tread very carefully while in the physical body.

* Basically, idols are images of humanity's limited perception so science is a study of humanity's idols.

Study and ponder the various definitions of the word, idol, from http://www.dictionary.com:

Idol –noun
1. an image or other material object representing a deity to which religious worship is addressed.
2. Bible .
a. an image of a deity other than god.
b. the deity itself.
3. any person or thing regarded with blind admiration, adoration, or devotion: Madame Curie had been her childhood idol.
4. a mere image or semblance of something, visible but without substance, as a phantom.
5. a figment of the mind; fantasy.
6. a false conception or notion; fallacy.

[Open Mind Ed]

Believe what you want to I say as long as it causes no harm to anyone else.

But surely only one religion or none at all can be right.

Science brings knowledge whilst religion spreads ignorance. Science raises questions but religion tells you not to question the good lord (or the bad lord).You could be worshipping the wrong one. Ask yourself that question. Man made up religions not god. Or did he? And if he did why did he (she or it) do so?

Now there's a question or two.

[tpreitzel]

:roll: Believe what you want to I say as long as it causes no harm to anyone else.

Belief causes harm? LOL... No, belief doesn't and can't cause harm by definition.

But surely only one religion or none at all can be right.

Surely? Are you a prophet? Neither YOU nor I know whether one "religion" * is correct or not.

Science brings knowledge whilst religion spreads ignorance. Science raises questions but religion tells you not to question the good lord (or the bad lord).You could be worshipping the wrong one. Ask yourself that question. Man made up religions not god. Or did he? And if he did why did he (she or it) do so?

Nonsense. For the umpteenth time, science is based merely on the sensory apparatus of humanity, i.e. the 5 senses, which by definition is EXTRAORDINARILY limited. From your statements, you've likely been reading far too many fictional books by Dan Brown. Try reading the works of a real biblical scholar, Dr. Michael S. Heiser, http://www.michaelsheiser.com . Finally, employ some critical thinking, not more indoctrination that's filtered through your personal biases.

Now there's a question or two.

You haven't mentioned ANYTHING here of substance that hasn't been logically refuted numerous times in the past. Writing specifically of Christian denominations, ALL of them have their weaknesses because they're institutions of men. True Christianity has absolutely NOTHING to do with institutions. Judaism, the precursor of Christianity, is ritualistic for sure, but there is a reason, i.e. Judaism is a demonstration by Jehovah that rules can't be faithfully obeyed by humanity... Hence, the rise of grace, Christianity.

* I don't view Christianity as a "religion". Rather, Christianity is a personal relationship with Jehovah by the grace of His personal sacrifice in the human form of Jesus Christ.

[tpreitzel]

If one examines the bulk of paranormal phenomena closely, there's generally an aspect of the event which, if told, would leave many people incredulous. I'm thinking of Mr. Penniston's codes in this manner. I'm not judging the potential veracity of the codes, but rather the context in which many paranormal phenomena occur. If the codes are genuine, I can fully understand why Mr. Penniston kept them private for so long. Paranormal phenomena frequently contain a trickster attribute in addition to the strangeness of the events themselves. It's almost as if the source of the imagery is playing a game and daring the recipient to relay the information publicly. This aspect alone raises a warning flag about the motives behind many paranormal events. The late Dr. Karla Turner has written somewhat on this aspect.

[Observer]

So was Jesus an Astronaut then.

Obs

[tpreitzel]

So was Jesus an Astronaut then.

Obs

Naturally, you're asking the wrong question because of personal bias *. Your very question implies that since scripture tells us that Jesus Christ ascended into heaven that He must be an astronaut since the science of human perception limits humanoids without wings to flying only in craft. In order to constrain UFOs to the science of human perception, most biased investigators dismiss the cases of UFOs morphing into other "objects", etc. Personally, I'd say that Jesus Christ doesn't NEED a craft so my answer to your question is "no". I'm sure that Eric Von Daniken would agree with your biased assumptions, though.

* ALL humans are biased including me. My bias in favor of Christianity developed through personal experiences of great grace by Jesus Christ.

[Ignis Fatuus]