I doubt we will ever know the truth

[larry warren]

hi guys,
very interesting thoughts on the case, im impressed.
let me clairify a point, in 1985 or 84! i started to hemorage, through the skin at
the back of my neck, my first wife worked in a large conn, hospital as an OTR.
one day the bleeding really kicked off so we went to new Briton general hosp.
after extensive examinations, blood work and all the rest, they brought in a doc,
that specilizes in nuke medicine, pretty damn unerving for sure!
he asked me a simple and streight forward question, had i ever been exposed
to an unshilded nuke device? and if i had served in nam.
i said no not that i know of? and also that i was to young to have been to Viet nam.
he then told us that i was showing signs of expouser to rads that would not show
up for 20 years! than i told hem about one night back in 1980, got the standard blank look,
and was then showen the door! as often would happen.
some of that paper work is in East Gate, and the soil anylisis from caple green is as well
a further report on the soil is found in the 2005 update! what caused this strange
change to the soil, in that field! and only in one spot, i mean i diddent know that
exact spot was messed up when i first pointed it out to Peter in feb 1988, but it is
and it was not caused by an iron age fort! makes one wonder!also strange how
the land owner has piled tons of dirt in that spot for years, and when the uk edit
of east gate came out in 97, the field was full of hemp, great for the cameras to
film a pot field wilst discussing this very important serries of events.
so yea i get pissed of f when certain people run their agendes and suggust
i wasent in that forrest in 1980, one place i never was, was in an industral microwave
just to make my Story more beleiveable! but i shure have suffererd the effects as if i
had, and so have the other guys!
guys someone else was there,and it was for a reason i dont know, but what i do know
is what it was not. thats why there are so many rats in the barn with this case its real
the uk government is as dirty as my owne in this thing and untill the bastards that
control the info on such matters are held accountable the dabate will rage on.
just some thoughts from uncle Larry
have happy bank hol! and happy memorial day to my yankee bros!
P.S. observer, you said a naughty word, i think mypressence on the site
has brought you all down to gutter level! next thing you know, Ian R will get
himself a Harley Davidson, and only then will my mission on this planet be complete!

[Observer]

Larry
You probably/possibly had a mild form of radiation sickness which could fit in with this new theory.
What bad word? Please don't repeat it. If i said it on the forum its probably allowable.
Have a good holiday.
Obs

[AdrianF]

Therefore, the tree could have been some distance from the contamination source. If the tree is in a forest, which this one was, then the tree roots entangle themselves below ground, so all the trees with roots in the contaminated area would show the same signs of contamination. Older trees, with longer roots would have been affected first, younger trees with shorter roots would have been affected last. It would seem that this was the only tree so affected, thus it is most likely that this was simply an infection of that tree alone. However, his brother is a chemist and he is going to seek his view on the discolouration of the tree and whether or not the blue colour could result from an ammonia based substance. Hydrazine is ammonia based.

Hi
This tree seems to be quite away from the landing sites that have been established, if the Forestry Commission can give a reasonable answer for this then it might an idea to discount the tree as a distraction.

Apparently World in Action ran a doc in 82 about the secret cost of defense, it featured the spiraling costs of Chevaline. If anything had gone wrong whilst testing the PAC unit for example, it would have drawn a lot of attention had it gone out to the public.

If Hydrazine was present then I would assume that soil samples might come in useful? Col Halt took a soil sample from the scene at the time. I wonder if he still has it?

Larry do you still have your soil samples?

Cheers
Adrian

[John Burroughs]

Guess what. I had bleeding gums and Heart and eye problems after. But I still think it had to do with lazer which would explain the lights that came from above. The Air Force just released a memo that they have a new lazer weapon that will be used from a C-130. The Lazer uses chemicals to make it work and it has taken many years to develope. Again take a hard look at the Marconi company and ELF they may have been working on shooting down a missle but what where they using and what kind of effects would it have caused!!!

[Observer]

John
I know you like the laser theory and lasers were around in 1980, but in those days they were small table top lab units or ones being used in industrial manufacturing. I saw the DOC on the 747 which carries a lazer weapon but that development started way past 1980.
Perhaps we could delve into Marconi's history and see what they were doing back then. The BT site at Martlesham Heath were at that time developing micro wave comms and fibre optic cables again for comms but as far as i a can gather from talking to people who worked there at that time, no secret laser weapons were being developed as it was not part of there remit. They were/are basically a telecomms research lab.
Obs

[puddlepirate]

John

This makes for interesting reading: http://www.cufon.org/cufon/cobramst.htm

OTH = Over The Horizon

NB: I am not a radar technician and know nothing about radars so what follows has been taken from the document displayed by following the link shown above and the sources shown below.

Cobra Mist was suddenly terminated in June 1973 due to various technical problems, primarily noise - the source of which was never established but Electronic Counter Measures (ECM) were not ruled out. This suggests the Soviets were jamming the emissions. However, whilst it was up and running, its designed max power was 10MW but it only achieved (apparently) a max output of 3.5MW There was a phenomenon known as 'aerial arcing' at high power outputs. Also, the 81st TFW must have had some involvement with the project as references to it appear in the history of the 81st TFW (apparently).

...However "antenna arcing" and "corona" are mentioned. Both of these are electrical effects which occur at high power levels and reveal the strength of the electrical fields surrounding the radar antenna which itself was physically massive. As a speculation, we suppose it is remotely possible that SOME sightings or other effects MIGHT be attributed to the intense radio frequency electrical field present when the radar was being operated at high power levels. Note that, according to the documents, the design power level of the radar was never realized.

The sudden termination of the programme is attributed to the technical problems and in particular the noise issue. However, the US had pumped something like US$150m into the programme, so to close it suddenly was surprising. The closure was so swift that staff were only given a matter of a few hours notice and were so incensed that some of them staged a protest lock in. However, approx 40 technicians were subsequently employed at Bentwaters. This tends to suggest that work on OTH radars continued, or why would the US retain the technicians? Something was going on on the 'ness after June 73, e.g. RAF lorries were often going onto the 'ness, ostensibly as part of an ordnance disposal programme.

Sources:
(1) 40 Years of Marconi Radar from 1946 - 1986; GEC Review, Vol 13, No 3 (1991) Pages 172 - 189.
(2) Orfordness: Secret Site. Kinsey, G; Lavenham Press (1981)

Keeping with Obs Chevaline theory, there is a very tenuous link between UK OTH radar technicians being employed at Bentwaters post June '73, on-going work on the 'ness involving the RAF, the 81st TFW and Orfordness, Chevaline stress testing on the 'ness circa '79 and the possibility of 'odd lights' being generated by high power radar emissions causing arcing and coronas....and if such strange lights occured, they would be on a bearing of 110 from Woodbridge, almost the same bearing as the lighthouse....

Projects can be closed for a variety of reasons but to close a project as abruptly as they did with Cobra Mist suggests a couple of things (a) it was compromised (b) the concept had been proved (c) a major breakthrough had been achieved and given the concept had been proved but compromise was suspected, then it was essential to move the project core team to a much less visible and highly secure area.... Nacking great aerials on the coast, with technicians drinking in the local pubs and going to and fro on a daily basis is hardly conducive to secrecy. I'll bet there must have been a fleet of AIG's off the coast, outnumbering the local fishing boats by two to one and more 'tourists' visiting Orford than you could shake a stick at. So I'd reckon, given the US regarding the UK's ability to keep a secret (e.g. Philby, Burgess, Maclean, Blunt etc etc) as non existent, they couldn't wait to get the scientists behind the wire and out of the way of prying eyes and pricked up ears.

Therefore, although there is no hard evidence, I suspect that the activity on the 'ness regarding Chevaline, the work involving the OTH radar techicians working at Bentwaters, the 81st TFW, odd lights produced by high power radar and the RFI are somehow linked. No idea how...just a gut feeling.

[puddlepirate]

Chaps

A complete irrelevance but when searching for the Sir Humphrey Appelby quote to use in my signature I came across this and in the context of the RFI couldn't resist it...

Bernard Woolley: "That is why that torpedo landed on Sandwich Golf Course."
Jim Hacker: "Sandwich Golf Course? I didn't read that in the paper."
Bernard Woolley: "No, of course not: there was a cover-up. The members just found a new bunker on the 7th fairway the next day."

Source: http://www.yes-minister.com/ypmseas1a.htm#YPM%201.1

Anyone found a new bunker in Rendlesham Forest by any chance?

[Observer]

Nothing wrong in gut feelings puddle, we all use them from time to time and in a way its gut feelings that have often moved this forum on. As long as you don't get guts ache, come on smile.

I have read all about Cobra Mist and we did study it at length on the forum some time back.
There could well be a connection between all those senarios. Wasn't Cobra Mist de commisioned [switched off for a better description] several years before the RI? By 1980 I don't think any thing was left standing and it had all been cleared away.
A lot of the scientists and engineers working at CM were US government employed [along with their civilian counter parts from the companies that were involved] and were Civil Servants. Posting these out of work guys to a near by US establishment was the US governments way of appeasment for the way they were treated. I remember reading about this in a local paper around that time. Of course, you may be right, and their deployment to the bases was of a more sinister nature. It was big news locally at the time and there were several columns in several local papers about it. I think the East Anglian Daily Times was one.

On to the more technical side, some pundits have said that it was being interfered with by the Russians either from a satallite or from ships in the North sea. No government is going to admit that or even aknowledge it.
Other pundits have said [reported in some national papers] that it was a secret aggreement between NATO/USA and Russia that it was de commisioned as part of a secret deal/trade off in the arms race.
This i'm more inclined to believe. I'm not trying to prove you wrong as i think you have a valid point and its worth further investigation, so you have my support. I think brick walls will appear quickly on this though!
Obs

[puddlepirate]

hi Obs

It's the link to your Chevaline theory we are trying to prove. Cobra Mist ended in June '73. It was RCA who employed the tecnicians so quite why the USAF would then decide to employ 40 of them at Bentwaters needs clarification. I would have thought this would have been a AWRE / MoD responsibility, given they were British and not American technicians (see Orfordness: Secret Site). The reason for closure is given as the problems with noise which they could not resolve. ECM seems to be the most likely cause, although this was not confirmed.

Also what involvement did the 81st TFW have with Cobra Mist/Orfordness? If they had none, then why include it in their official history?

Although the Cobra Mist kit was dismantled there are still aerial arrays on the 'ness today and the BBC World Service has transmitters there (see Google Earth)

Further to that, it would seem odd to move OTH radar development from the 'ness to Bentwaters because Bentwaters was an operational airfield, not a development site. And if they didn't use the skills of the technicians for radar development, then what did they use them for? What would seem more likely is if they had actually managed to overcome the noise issue they might then have moved the technicians to an underground operational facility, somehow linked to antenna on the 'ness or at Bawdsey.

We know Chevaline was being tested on the 'ness and we also know Chevaline was designed to fool Soviet ICBM defences by deploying chaff etc.. There seems to be some kind of detection issue that would fit with developing Chevaline and testing its effectiveness against OTH radar. Can't quite put my finger on it but it seems right somehow. Bentwaters/Woodbridge, 81st TFW, Chevaline, OTH radar, decoy devices....helos known to carry suspended loads (the Apollo capsule) and high powered radar that can creat odd lights.....there just has to be a link. And I still think the catalyst for all this is the very grave situation that prevailed along the Polish border in Dec '80 and the warnings issued by the President of the United States to the Soviets.

[Observer]

Puddle
I don't have sole ownership of the Chev theory, i just presented it to the forum but there is a sleeping partner who is not a member which you were not to know about. I am though flattered that you keep referring to it as my theory and i appreciate your research, educated guesses and general in the know knowledge. I go along with your suspected connection with the OHR and Chev. Its going to be a mine field to prove which i doubt we ever will.

I need to PM you.
Obs

[puddlepirate]

A quick update on the tree - which might or might not be relevant. I was in the company of two chemists this evening. I mentioned the Rendlesham tree and why I wanted to know what caused the discolouration. One of them had heard of Chevaline and both were familar with Hydrazine. They gave their opinion of a possible cause of the discolouration but please remember this was a casual chat, they had not seen the photos nor had they analysed any samples etc.

The concensus of opinion was that Hyrdazine on its own would not be the cause of the contamination. They went into a lengthy explanation of complexes and formulae and stuff, which was way over my head...but if I understood them correctly, what they were saying was that Hydrazine is very toxic but because it contains aqueous ammonia, it has a very short life when exposed to air - except if it comes into contact with copper, if it comes into contact with copper, it alters the chemical structure or something and it can remain in the soil for a long time. Also, they thought it most likely that copper was the cause of the blue discolouration in the tree trunk - but generally speaking copper does not do trees any good at all so for the tree to have survived copper contamination was odd. There must have been something else. They have asked to see the photographs in order to give a more informed opinion.

If copper was used in Chevaline and if the hyrdrazine came into contact with the copper we might have something. As has been said in another post, there are many landing sites but given Larrry W stated that at his landing site there was some discolouration of the soil - and if, and this is a big if, the tree was towards the edge of the forest reasonably near to LW's site then the roots might have extended far enough into the field to absorb contaminated moisture.

Issues:

a. precise location of the tree in relation to LW's landing site
b. the height of the tree in 1980
c. did Chevaline contain copper

As I say, the tree could be a complete irrelevance but given that something happened to the tree and that according to the maps provided with the posts, it was quite near at least one alleged landing site, I think this worth pursuing to a conclusion because the answer might be significant. Also, the tree was approx 35 years old and the contamination appears to have started about 28 to 30 years ago.

[AdrianF]

As I say, the tree could be a complete irrelevance but given that something happened to the tree and that according to the maps provided with the posts, it was quite near at least one alleged landing site, I think this worth pursuing to a conclusion because the answer might be significant. Also, the tree was approx 35 years old and the contamination appears to have started about 28 to 30 years ago.

Puddlepirate,

According to the map in the link posted by John Hanson, the tree in question is a long way from the established area of activity in 1980. If trees at the landing sites, were found to be badly contaminated then it might be relevant. I don't think this tree is.

Re the car engine problems and Cobra Mist, I'm not sure if this has been talked about on the forum before http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/norfolk/4732096.stm

The problem here as I understand it, are the engine management systems having problems in the vicinity of this facility.
I don't think that Dot and Brenda had this kind of technology on board their car, unless they had a very tricked out Cortina.

Adrian

[Observer]

Adrian
I tried to explain about those car systems in a post to John Hanson only today on the forum.Have a look.
This subject although interesting is taking us in my view off topic.
Obs

[AdrianF]

Sorry Observer,

I posted in the above thread without reading your post first. Exactly, the tree and the car are driving this thread in a different direction.

Adrian

[Observer]

Adrian
No probs, Puddle is right concerning the ellimination process of these threads, however, my personal opinion is that i doubt there is going to be any 'profit' from them in our quest for the answer.

None of us have any control and quite rightly over who wants to pursue particular subjects and we have in the past done just this even though it was thought an irrelevance at the time they some times high light new evidence. There are also good examples on this forum of going off topic to the point that the original theme got totally lost and it ended up in total confusion.
However on this occasion, i feel we need to be steered to stay on topic.
Obs

[larry warren]

Hi All,
Adrian, good question!
sadly i never had the samples, peter robbins took the samples himself
and sent them along to Springborne Enviromental Labs near boston mass,
infact he took samples in 1988, and again in 1990 if memorie serves me,
the scientists thought they were of extreem interest.
pete may have some of it, i will check it out.
good to see John B, talk about the after effects he sufferd, and sad at the same time
others did aswell, so it takes guts to go to that area of these events, because in the
end all you really have to study, is how the events effected the people involved,
its a rather sad tail my friends, and i guess not much fun for folks that want easy
answers!
Respect!
Larry Warren

[AdrianF]

Thanks Larry,
It would be interesting to know if any anomalies in the soil samples that you took, matched those taken by Halt.
Not being a Toxicologist I have no idea if this would be scientifically worth while?

Cheers
Adrian

Ps. Not sure if anyone has seen this before, I found it amoosin ( as they say in Suffolk ). Taken from http://ufonews.tv

[Observer]

Hi Larry
You said you had bad effects as others did medically after the incident, did any doctor or hospital diagnose what caused your ailments? Also did any of you guys get in touch with each other after the incident, maybe years after to swap notes or just to talk about old times.

Regards
Obs

[larry warren]

hi observer,
indeed, the new brition , general hospital was the place i went to when some of those adverse effects began,
a doctor that specilized in nucler medicine made the diagnosis.
part of that med report i think is reproduced at the back of east gate, i dont even have a copie, but i think
we put it in.
as for hooking up with other bentwaters vets, ive been with halt, john B, steve laplume in person,
and had phone conversations with two others in the last 27 years.
i think that bad stuff, ie health effects, among othre things were discussed in those interactions.