25/26 December 1980 - Incident Begins [Page Discussion]

[Andy]

Whilst working a night shift last night, and on my break, i was intrigued to hear from one of the pool (bank) nurses who happened to glimpse the book i was reading 'Left at East gate,' that i should speak to Mark (another pool nurse) about it. Apparently his (American)brother-in-law was stationed at Bentwaters at the time the incidents happened. Although not an actual witness himself, nonetheless he apparently spoke to 'one of the witnesses who was in the forest and saw it.' Apparently it suddenly went all 'hush-hush' and that there 'were things he (the brother-in-law) couldn't tell' Mark but apparently the witness described it as 'weird' and apparently what he saw kept 'changing shape and morphing' and it seemed that 'it was there, but not there.' He described it as apparently seemingly travelling through time and on the edge of another realm where it would suddenly look clearer, then becoming less clear and constantly changing shape. However, he recommended that i actually talk to Mark himself (as he, the nurse i spoke to, had been told this many years ago back in the late 80's when he first met him), as he would probably be better able to describe and relay what his brother-in-law had told him. I don't tend to work with Mark much but rest assured i will be 'grilling him' when we next meet. It would be interesting to also meet his relative if possible, assuming he is still in the UK and the immediate area. Also interesting that Bustinza (and i believe Larry Warren) likened the craft to a 'soluble aspirin.' and changing shape.

[Guest]

Hi Andy
I have taken your advice and decided to re write my post here.

There were no Willys Jeeps in use at Bentwaters & Woodbridge.

The main vehicles for Police, Fire and general purpose were Ford, Chevy's and the BL Sherpa.

These vehicles were mostly pickups with a few vans. They were much larger than a Willys Jeep. It was US policy when based abroad to use where ever possible vehicles manufactured by the country they were based in. This is why the BL Sherpa was used. It was mostly pickups with a few vans. They were painted in a rough matt olive drab.

The Police and general purpose vehicles were generally painted in air force blue but a few were also in matt olive drab.

The base Police cars (not sure of make) were your typical black and white units that you see in the movies with blue and orange lights on the roof. These units could even pull you up for speeding on the base and issue you with ticket.

On a different note, there were a few Americans that married English girls and stayed in the UK after demob. One started a business in Diss selling shot gun cartridges and another became a postmaster in a nearby village. These guys would be interesting to talk to if you can trace them.

Observer

[Andy]

It's seems that information is very much like buses; it all come at once Thanks Observer for the information regarding the Military transport that you kindly sent, and my two American friends eventually contacted me soon after and confirmed what you had told me. One of them Tim, was a mechanic at Bentwaters and he said Ford were the trucks in the late 60's to early 80's then GM got the contract and the fleet started to change over to GM. Jeeps not so much due to the Humvee (made by GM). However, i now think the truck thing was a bit of a 'goose chase' for me as other information has since surfaced, and although i have no doubt any of those vehicles mentioned would be able to cope with 'rocky terrain' ( i realised it was G.Bruni's words, and not actually mentioned in the witness statements), i personally don't think that was ever the case. Apparently the old logging route (now numbered eight) used to end at that point along it where other paths lead off from it, and apparently it was a large clearing. This is where i personally believe they drove to and obviously not being able to go any further proceeded on foot, but that is by the by and not of any interest other than to myself and what i was studying at the time. Once again many thanks.

[Andy]

Having spent a lazy and enjoyable sunday afternoon reading various debunkers' websites, and their theories- lighthouses, non apparent radiation levels afterall (if it was an alien craft, who said it would necessarily be radioactive, anyhow?), rabbit scrapings (unlike any of the hundreds i have viewed in my garden over the years) etc, etc. I'm amazed that they appear to have overlooked another possible reason for the mass hysteria and hallucinations of many servicemen, including high ranking ones. Ergot poisoning!

[Observer]

Hi Andy

Ralph Noyes (Ex MOD) mentions 'mass hallucinations' and the consequences.

Ergot is a disease of rye and grain caused by a fungus. The fungus spores get into the flour thats used for baking etc.

Although this 'conspiricy' theory is possible, i just cannot see how so many would have been affected. Not to mention those in the control tower at Bentwaters who saw all the lights over Rendlesham forest. This crew would be eating in the Bentwaters mess not Woodbridge and i just cannot see how these guys would be affected as well.

I personally do not put a great importance on the rediation readings that were present and i feel that to a point the readings are some what irrelevant.

If you took back ground readings in a field in Cornwall, the readings would be much higher (still safe) than the national average. This is because the granite bed rock emmits more radiation than say a clay area would.

We do need to put this into perspective.

Regards

Observer

[Andy]

Hi Observer, the ergot was a bit of tongue in cheek sarcasm, and i wouldn't believe for one moment this was the cause But would be on the same level as all the other seemingly ridiculous debunking theories.
Thanks though for the information you kindly sent me on radiation, geiger counters and readings etc based on your own personal experiences. I found it very interesting reading and helped to make sense of some other pieces i was/am reading at present on the subject.

On a seperate note, i was interested to see Larry Warren being interviewed on the 'UFO invasion at Rendlesham programme'. It was the first time i'd see him 'live' so to speak as opposed to photos in books. Based on 20 years psychiatric nursing experience, and interviewing hundreds of people in that time, observing for verbal/ non-verbal cues etc, and having been trained in it, i can honestly say that unless he is either a damn good liar and/or well versed in body language, or actually telling the truth, i would tend to lean towards the latter as he gave no obvious indication of telling untruths and certain non-verbal cues suggested he was basing his answers on recall of past memories. It's a pity the interview was brief as i would have liked to have watched him for longer.

[Observer]

Hi Andy

You may have heard of Ian Ridpath. he is one of the sceptics on the Rendlesham forest incident. He has many interesting things to say although he is not a member of this forum.

You could try asking Admin for a lead to Ian's posts or contact Ian on:
ian@ianridpath.com

Mass hallucination was one of the very early conspiricy theories about RFI
(Rendlesham forest incident) but was very quickly denounced as not possible.

Regards

Observer

[Andy]

Hi Observer. You might be able to answer this for me. When you used to go shooting in Rendlesham forest in the years pre-1980 can you remember if route 10 has always been there, or is it a relatively new creation? It's just that i always wonder why the men took route 12 rather than 10 considering they saw the lights in the forest due east of east gate.
Surely it would have been quicker to go via Route 10 which is relatively nearer? Perhaps they did not want to draw unnecessary attention to themselves with Foley house residents, or the other reason which i am wondering about, perhaps route 10 did not exist then? I would be interested to know.

[Guest]

Hi Andy & Admin

First of all i just cannot remember the routes and their numbering. Wondering through the forest at night and noting which route we were on was not in the front of our minds. My friend who i shot with was my guide and had good forest knowledge. However, i think routes 10 & 12 are more or less where they used to be post the great storm.

Why did the airmen take one route rather than another? You have to realise that the forest was strange territory to them and special permission had to be obtained to go off camp onto British soil in the persuite of their duties. The incident was seen as a special circumstance.

Most if not all of the airmen would not be familier with the forest and especially at night.

They were probably unaware that another route would have been a better route to take. I sincerely believe that it is as simple as that. They just dived down the first route that they thought would leed them to the incident.

I cannot see any hidden agendas for them taking one route over another for the reasons i have explained.

Observer

[Observer]

Hi Admin

First of all we need to establish if the ground was too hard caused by below zero temperatures for a rabbit to make any marks in the ground?
I suspect as i've said before that sheltered areas in the forest could well have been above freezing.
If for arguments sake the ground was soft enough for an animal to make those marks does it have to be a rabbit? It could have been a Badger or Fox?

Lastly, and perhaps admin can asnwer this, were the 3 marks in the ground all equally spaced and did they all measure equal distance from each other? If they did then it would have been a fluke for an animal to have made them as the odds for that happening would be huge.

This then points to some thing that was manufactured (by who) where consistancy of spacing would be a normal thing to do when engineering 3 legs to stand some thing on!

I don't quite think that Rabbits or Badgers have yet learnt the rudiments of measurement.

Larry Warren has had a hard time since the incident and i aggree with Admin that he is bascially telling the truth. It may be what he thinks is the truth or what he can remember, so i for one give him the benefit of the doubt but with a small proviso that some of his comments are a little 'grey'.

Observer

[Andy]

Hi Observer, i tend to agree with you. There is a pine forest next to my house which appear to have been saved the ravages of the hurricane and therefore the trees are a similar height to what they must have been at Rendlesham. When i walk the dogs during the winter months amongst the trees when the ground is frozen, due to the build up of dead pine needles and density of the trees, the ground tends to be softer. According to Ray Gulyas (Senior Master Sergeant) who took photographs of the area and measurements, the width from each ground indentation was twelve feet centre to centre.

[Observer]

Hi Andy

If what you say is correct (I've read it elsware as well) that the marks on the ground were 12 feet apart centre to centre and it was measured carefully. I thus suggest that the marks were made by a manufactured object of unknown origin. Although nothing is impossible, the odds that animals made those scratchings/indentations at near perfect spacing are too high.

I for one will be and have been directing my research as to what this object was? who made it? why did it land in Rendlesham? and was it man made or not? We have had a few theories presented to this forum in the past not to mention some theories written by some authors in their books.

If any body has any new theories lets hear them as you never know where they might lead us!

Observer

[Andy]

Hi Observer, interesting to read your response. I've said it before (albeit privately, so i hope you don't take offence if i say it more publicly) and i'll say it again, your knowledge and personal experience fascinates me. Your mind set also 'wets my appetite' and makes me 'take stock', and has helped to lead my own personal research into other avenues. Thanks for that. I bought what appears to be an intriguing book today 'Unearthly Disclosure' by Timothy Good (ISBN 0-09-940602-0). I haven't started it yet but apparently it is about a 'select group in the US military and scientific intelligence community, and furthermore that aliens have established subterranean and submarine bases on earth.' Might be a load of old tosh, but i shall reserve judgement until i've read it. I also saw another book which i wish i had bought now (i shall be in waterstones first thing on monday) about anti-gravity craft apparently researched and developed/tested by the Nazis. My sister recently recorded me a UFO related programme on sky TV (which shamelessly i haven't watched yet) regarding Hitler and UFO's. Rest assured, any insights i gain from my near future reading will be posted on here for debate.

[Observer]

Hi Andy

Those books sound like a good read, i havn't seen them myself but if you think there are any bits worth putting on the forum that could be relevant then go ahead.

There have been several conspiricy theories concerning subterranean and underwater UFO bases on one or two TV docs. The Canadian Shag Harbour incident was one.

One of the biggest conspiricy theories put forward by most Ufologists is that governments are keeping it all secret from us and they know more than they are letting on. The US government is the one that gets the most 'flack' on this theory. One double bluff theory is that the US quite likes this as it takes the heat out of their black projects. Let the poeople think its a UFO, but in reality its one of our black projects. This scenario has been used for decades by the US.

I have often wondered why is it just super powers that get accused of cover ups. These incidents occurr all over the world and Mexico, hardly a super power has an above average number of sightings. Brazil is another country that is well above average for sightings.

The Nazis were working on gravity defying lift engines based on the Gauss principle. There was a doc on this but cannot remember which or when. The Gauss principle is very basically a interwoven ring of copper wire charged with high voltage. When charged it will hover off the work bench. There is a lot more to it than that but thats it in a nut shell.
The Royal Navy mine sweepers also have the whole hull Gaussed or used to so that any magnetic mines were repulsed rather than attracted. I believe they now use non steel hulls.

Just supposing for one moment that the British and US governments do know more and are not telling. Eventually the secret is going to come out as it is only human nature to spill the beans so to speak. People cannot keep secrets for long. A good example was the F117 stealth fighter that remained secret for about 10 years. It eventually got revealed unintentionally because of a persistant media and aviation enthusiasts detective work.

Observer

[Andy]

Hi Admin. I'm only a short way into the book, but it is very interesting reading. Not too sure about the photographs of the Italian alien though , but who knows?
I got the other book today, and can't wait to get my teeth into it. It's called 'The Hunt for Zero Point' by Nick Cook (ISBN 0-09-941498-8) The resume on the back cover is 'The US military have for years had top-secret anti-gravity technology, initially invented by the Nazis. In 1956, a group of aerospace engineers announced that anti-gravity would soon be a reality, but it never appeared to happen. Now Cook thinks that it did, but was covered up...Cook relates his investigations in splendid cloak-and-dagger style with low-lit X-files scenes of secret meetings and nervous witnesses.' All sounds very intriguing and i'm sure it will be a good read. p.s. The ISBN shows a 'cool face' at the end of it. Not sure why this should happen but it should be a number eight in place of the said face.

[Observer]

Hi all

I have an anti gravity device sitting right in front of me while i'm writing this post. In fact most of you will probably have one. Its called a magnet.

Set in opposing poles they will push away from each other including vertically against gravity. It is the science behind this that has been under research for decades and started by the Nazi regime during the war.

Newton said that everything on earth is pushed rather than pulled with the exception of magnetism and gravity. For those of you who say surely a locomotive is pulling the coaches behind it. actually it is pushing them, but the explanation is too lengthy to go into here.

Nick Pope who i admire for his down to earth approach to UFO's can 'dramatise' the written word on occasions. After all it sells books.
But then Nick is no exception in this field of literature.
I will hold my judgement until i've read the book.

Observer

[Observer]

Hi all

In my last post i referred to Nick Pope, where i meant to say Nick Cooke.
My applogies to Nick Pope.

Nick Cooke's TV Doc concerning area 51 shown earlier this year on Sky was interesting. See my post concerning this doc.
I have noticed with most of these documentaries whether about UFO's or Black projects that they end up saying nothing. Quite a few are just frivolous or mocking and others just take the mick. I have yet to see a really serious doc where discussion is balanced and all points of view are given fair air time.

I will wait to see what others think of Nick's book?

Observer

[Andy]

Timothy Good's 'Unearthly disclosure' has really got me thinking now. He describe underwater USO (unidentified submergible object) bases. It got me thinking about two things that recently came to my attention. My colleague Mark (who i mentioned previously) has a friend who is/was a pig farmer (yes, that mysterious farmer again in the Rendlesham area and he allegedly saw a morphing craft hovering over (what i would imagine to be Orfordness) which appeared to be 'sucking up water,' before disappearing again 'in a blink of an eye.' Was it sucking up water or had it just emerged on a pillar of water, similar to what Good describe?
Also one of my psychiatric patients who lives in the Rendlesham area (and i'm not breaking any confidential information here as i have not, or would even dream of mentioning his name), whenever he is admitted having relapsed into a hypo-manic phase he always become obsessive about UFO's (or USO's) underneath the water near Rendlesham (again i would assume to be Orfordness- or whatever it is called). On one occasion he was brought in after being found swimming out to one of these 'underwater lights.' When he is well he doesn't tend to speak about it, but in a manic phase individuals lose their inhibitions and therefore are more likely to talk about 'way-out' things; and now i'm wondering, is he actually telling some sort of truth and not as 'deluded' as he appears?[list=][/list]

[Observer]

Hi Andy

Your last post concerning Tim Good is only confirming what some Ufologists round the world are saying. That there are under water UFO bases. If you are of alien origin and are studying mankind but don't want to be found, where better than to hide under water.
I have a foot in each camp on this theory.

Jenny Randles is one of many who says that Rendlesham and Orfordness is a UFO hot spot. Brought on initially by Cobra Mist.

People with mental illness don't necessarily tell lies or make things up and in some cases can be quite lucid.

Observer

[Andy]

Had i known how fascinating and absorbing all this UFO stuff is/was, i would not have gone on that fateful walk in Rendlesham forest/ UFO trail with my friend Sue, all those weeks ago, back in the Summer. I am a very busy individual, with limited time on my hands to engage in such pursuits, but the more i read, and engage with what i consider to be intelligent and very knowledgeable individuals on the subject, the more i find myself totally drawn in; and as previously said 'absorbed' and intrigued. I'm presently reading the chapter 'Soul vampires' in Timothy Good's fascinating book 'Unearthly disclosure.' It describes 'night terrors'
I have a down-to-earth, no nonsense friend/colleague, Clare, who originates from Clacton (another apparent 'Hot-spot') and has some fascinating accounts and alleged personal experience(s) of UFO's including personal 'abduction.' Recently she had a 'night terror' and perhaps in retrospect ignorantly, because i didn't/don't know much about it at the time, i took little interest, but now with new knowledge gained, when time permits will be researching both scientific and other possible explanations. I have to smile to myself. Here we are, all these psychiatric nurses with tales to tell about Rendlesham and UFO's. Who are the sane ones? However, because we all live so near to Rendlesham, and believe me, it is a strange place, perhaps you are hearing a load of level headed, intelligent individuals (including highly educated and intelligent patients) relating some very real UFO phenomenon? The more i hear and read, the more i am convinced that something did take place in Rendlesham forest, and it wasn't necessarily of this world.