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General discussion about the Rendlesham forest incident

Postby ghaynes » Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:36 am

Observer wrote:What i do think is something was dropped into the woods or was parachuted in, either by accident or it was deliberate? This is what we should all be concentrating on.
Observer


It would definitely be useful to know the wind direction at the time. If Runway 27 was in use then you could discount either a plane crashing on take off or something being dropped from a plane on take off.
Regards.

Graham
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Postby redsocks » Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:42 am

Hi ppulatie and welcome,

Great to have somebody on the forum who was acually there at the time.Can I ask you a couple of straight questions:What do you think of the ARRS theory about the Apollo capsule being dropped into the forest by the ARRS guys and spotted later by the 81st security police?it does fit the discription given by Penniston. Secondly there is a lot of UFO folk law when it comes to what happened at Rendlesham in 1980 among airmen who served there as I know because I have spoke to them myself and none of them claim the UFO/alien story is true,its actually laughed off as a big joke.Now bearing in mind you were stationed there at the time and worked in the right section with the 81st can I ask what you think what went on that night and do you buy the UFO/Alien story?

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Postby puddlepirate » Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:14 pm

Hi all

We are getting nowhere. Facts:

1. Something hit the landing lights
2. Lt Col Halt sent a memo to RAF/CC (odd - cc in civilian terms usually means copy addressee so perhaps the memo was sent to somewhere else as well - the action or 'to' addressee?)
3. Lt Col Halt was promoted

If we believe Warren, then Bentwaters was on alert because he had been assigned to a guard post only manned during an alert

If we believe Halt, Englund and the other witnesses then there were several groups of airmen in the forest and some were there before Burroughs, Penniston, Warren, Bustinza et al arrived.

If we believe the witnesses then something major occured.

For the USAF to go off base in such numbers means whatever it was, was a major event and it had to be something involving the US otherwise it would have been handled by MoD, UK police etc.

So, either something happened or nothing happened and everyone, including Halt are lying.

The incident involving the landing lights must have been logged and probably investigated. A whole row had to be replaced so somebody, probably the base commander, would want a report. It (apparently) wasn't an A-10 and I think we can safely assume it wasn't Santa Claus on his sleigh, so do any of you who were there know what hit the lights? I keep on about this but we need to know so it can be ticked off the list.
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Postby puddlepirate » Tue Jan 15, 2008 7:00 pm

A quick observation. Warren reports being at a guard post only manned during alerts. He also reports that Woodbridge flight tower reported seeing the lights as did the Bentwaters WSA tower. I cannot see any benefit to be gained by lying about being on guard at a remote post. therefore I believe Warren is telling the truth about this. Issues:

a. An alert must have been in progress at Bentwaters or he wouldn't have been assigned to that particular guard post
b. If there was no flying scheduled then why was Woodbridge flight tower manned? The A-10's had left for Germany, the base was at a very low state of readiness and Woodbridge was secondary to Bentwaters. Therefore, were they expecting something to land at Woodbridge that night?
c. If personnel from both Bentwaters and Woodbridge were tasked to search the forest in such numbers, then almost certainly there must have been more personnel on duty than is claimed or there must have been a recall. That supports Warren's statement about manning a post only activated during an alert. It also suggests that more was going on than the Crimbo parties in the messes.

NNNN
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Postby Observer » Tue Jan 15, 2008 7:04 pm

I totally concur with your post, but have slight doubt re the landing lights in as much that admin has reminded me that it is second hand information which was an off hand remark to Jenny Randles. Perhaps admin can enlighten us.
I think there was some repair needed but it needs to be confirmed.
If it is hard fact then thats a useful bit of evidence. If that is the case then
It suggests my initial theory might hold some water in that they could have been damaged not by a low flying aircraft but by some thing suspended under neath a Helicopter which was subsequently dropped in the forest for safety reasons. It was classified kit hence all the panic.

Kit suspended under a helo has some accident history, not just the USAF but many forces and civilian bodies round the world.

Care and maintenance would be under the MOD who probably subcontracted the work to small local companies after security clearence.
Repairing the landing lights would be no different, so lets find the company or guy that allegedly did it.

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Postby Observer » Tue Jan 15, 2008 7:42 pm

Hi puddlepirate

I think they were just duty crews in the control towers, Graham Haynes i think commented on this some time ago.

Yes, Larry Warren might be telling the truth, but he has done himself no favours [for obvious reasons] over the years which puts doubt in people's minds.

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Postby puddlepirate » Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:21 pm

Hi Observer, all...

I seem to be posting too many things on here so perhaps I should shut up for a bit !!

One thing....if we accept there was an alert, then why was there an alert?

I suggest it was because of the situation on the Russian / Polish border. The role of the 81st was to support NATO ground forces etc and the A-10 was a tank buster. Whilst most of the a/c had left for Germany, it would make sense for the foremost US airbases in the UK to be put on alert, just in case. Not in case of an attack on the bases or on the UK but in case the aircraft based in Germany were called upon. The situation was very tense and if the Soviets had gone into Poland there was every chance NATO would have responded. This would have escalated very quickly. Not sure of the DEFCON state at the twin bases over the Christmas period at that time but I'll bet it was higher than DEFCON 1. I believe understanding exactly what was going on with regard to the Soviet/Poland situation is key to knowing what might have happened in the forest.
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Postby puddlepirate » Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:11 pm

Gentlemen.

I contend that in Dec 1980 the bases were on full alert and this is the reason why:

"..The Soviet Union, then led by Leonid Brezhnev, made it clear, publicly and privately, that it could not tolerate the anti-regime activism in Poland. In December 1980, Moscow informed the Polish military that there would be a major "exercise" involving many Soviet divisions and East German and Czechoslovak troops. Kuklinski reported the information to the CIA and also predicted a massive crackdown on Solidarity. US President Jimmy Carter twice warned the Soviets not to intervene in Poland...."

Source: https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for- ... cle11.html

Based on that, I believe that the US were probably using a stealth to overfly and photograph activity on the Russian/Polish border. It is known that the US fly long range spying missions (Gary Powers/U2/1962) from airbases in the US. Stealth flies at night. It is fast. It is highly classified. And nobody would recognise it if it hit them on the head. Now I know we have dismissed an aircraft coming down but something came down - and I believe that whatever it was, was very important and had to be recovered quickly and if possible, covertly (remember the alleged Soviet activity at the Skoda importers at Ipswich). Nobody, except a very few directly involved in the recovery, were supposed to see it. I also contend that what was important about the Watton tapes was what was not on the tapes, i.e. it was important that nothing appeared on the tapes. They wanted to see if the stealth appeared on radar, possibly because it had been hit by a Soviet weapon and damaged - and they needed to know how that could have happened if the stealth was invisible to radar.

I shall now await a knock on the door from the CIA :D
You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time (Winston Churchill)...causa latet, vis est notissima
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Postby Observer » Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:57 pm

I like the theory and it has some good back up.

I guess it could have been a 'stealth' or high speed recci plane making an emergency landing at W/Bridge. I don't think it took off from said place for the recci.

The F-117 from where ever it flew from would need several tanker visits to get there and back but then it was not a recci aircraft. The only aircraft that could do this unrefuelled was the SR-71 and the U-2, but again it depends on where they took off from.

There was no aircrash at Woodbridge that i am certain, it would be too hard to keep quiet. but it could be a rescue 'pod from a recci plane that almost made it but ended up in the drink. Its more likely that the aircraft had a malfunction rather than being shot at, but you never know.

This has some mileage.

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Postby puddlepirate » Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:20 pm

Certainly not a conventional aircraft, that's for sure. Perhaps something similar to the black triangle seen by the Belgian Airforce in Nov 1989. No idea if that was of US origin but who knows. I doubt we will ever now for sure what came down in Rendlesham, not for some time yet at least but we can be sure that whatever it was, the US wanted it recovered and didn't want anyone to know about it.

Does anybody know anything about the team already in the forest when Halt's men arrived at the scene? What about the airman being comforted by an NCO? He must have seen something that upset him and my first thoughts are that he saw a body in pieces or very badly injured.

Personally, I'm going to continue with the idea that it was a stealth - an unknown craft of US origin - that might have broken up with parts, including the pilot, coming down in the forest with the rest going down in the sea. It might have been hit by a lucky strike from a Soviet missile, damaged but not downed it almost made it to Woodbridge. The recovered bits and pieces were collected by the 'mystery' aircraft that landed at Bentwaters a few days later. I also strongly believe that much of what Halt's men saw and experienced was a diversion initiated by the covert recovery team, be they ARRS or other special ops unit. Obviously this doesn't satisfy all elements but it covers most.

I'm not sure on what date lights were seen under the water off the ness and it could be that they are totally irrelevant but if they were seen in Jan 81, then they could easily have been an underwater recovery team using torches - vis can be very poor in UK waters, especially if there is lots of sand and mud around.
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Postby Observer » Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:52 am

The idea that it could have been some 'secret' US aircraft on its way back from an Eastern Europe recci mission is quite feasable. Also the idea that it was diverted to Woodbridge for uknown reasons, [malfunction or damaged] is also reasonable.

We must condider this, the F-117 was still in its final development stage and no way would the US risk it being shot down or lost over enemy territory, there was too much to lose if that happened.

My bet is that an already established and in service recci plane was in trouble for whatever reason. We have the SR-71, the U-2 and possibly an unknown such as the SR-71 replacement [Aurora].

The evidence points to a high speed aircraft [ceramic finish on the nose section, if thats what it was] no windows, [Auroa has no cockpit windows]
Men in space suits [Warren] The pilot of the SR-71 wore a type of space suit as do apparently the crew of the Aurora.

If it was an F-117, i guess it could have been a little incursion near to enemy radar to see if it got spotted. Remember, the Russians bragged some time ago that they can detect stealth with some new equipment and this could have been what happened. They could have fired at it and had a near hit causing minor damage.

We must also bear in mind that the F-117 is a subsonic aircraft and there would be no need for heat resistant materials such as ceramics on its nose section.

We must also consider that the F-117 has an ejector seat, not an escape module, but i suspect that Aurora type aircraft would have an escape module system.

I'm still checking to see what type of escape system the SR-71 had.

Its a perectly reasonable assuption that puddlepirate makes that the bulk of the aircraft is in the sea and the escape module landed in Rendlesham Forest. I wonder if it was the parachute that damaged the landing lights?

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Postby SouthyR1 » Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:06 pm

Hi Observer and others.

Have been following this post quite closely, and some really interesting things

are being put forward.

The escape system on the SR71 can be found here http://www.sr-71.org/blackbird/manual/1/1-199.php

The escape system on the f117 here
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-98340675.html

I did used to think that the alleged underground facility was to do with the incident, but now i am not so sure.

I do however buy the story of something coming in to land in an emergency and didnt make it.
Also as someone else has said, the posts that are to be manned during an alert, were, according to Larry Warren.
The fact that he wasnt even out in the forest has no significance, as im sure (maybe you can correct me) that if a base does get threatened, whether it be a Defcon alert or strange lights which are unidentifiable in a forest, then the whole base, and personnel would be put on standby incase they are needed.
I assume that all the guards are armed on their posts, and if a matter of a base coming on alert due to a threat, then personnel (who were not drunk, christmas remember!!) would have access to the armoury for their weapons.
But all this is side lined until we do find out what really happened and if it was just a recovery mission, for a plane etc, then the people who needed to know, and the people that didnt, didnt (carried on with the festivities!!)
With regard to the SR71 etc, would Penniston of known of such aircrafts?, and would he have thought that maybe would never see one as they were in England, not the USA?


Regards

Andy
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Postby SouthyR1 » Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:29 pm

I am sorry everyone for the exceptionally long story below, but i think it might help, the most interesting parts are near the bottom, but have put the whole thing on if you have time to read it all!!!

Aurora
Reports of plans for a high-performance piloted replacement for the SR-71 date back more than a decade. In 1979 it was reported that a:<41> "... Mach 4, 200,000-ft.-altitude aircraft that could be a follow-on to the Lockheed SR-71 strategic reconnaissance vehicle in the 1990s has been defined by the Air Force Aeronautical Systems Division and Lockheed." As previously noted, reports of the existence of a successor to the SR-71 surfaced repeatedly during the debate over termination of the SR-71. Subsequent observations of mysterious aerial phenomena have been connected with the 1988 reports that Aurora was a Mach 6 stealthy reconnaissance aircraft that was being developed to replace the SR-71.<42> Noted aerospace analyst Wolfgang Demisch, of First Boston Company, suggested that the $10 billion program would result in the production of about 30 aircraft.<43> More recently, Kemper Security analyst Lawrence Harris concluded that Lockheed was involved in a:<44> "... hypersonic replacement for the Mach 3 plus SR-71 reconnaissance aircraft. Circumstantial evidence suggests that this project has been underway since 1987 and that a first flight occurred in 1989... Aurora could be operational in 1995, six years after the probable first flight." This analysis suggested that the total development costs for Aurora might range from $4.4 billion to $8 billion, with the procurement of 24 aircraft costing an additional $10 billion to $24 billion. According to another report, by mid-1992:<45> "... Aurora was being flown from a base in the Nevada desert to an atoll in the Pacific, then on to Scotland to refuel before returning to the US at night. Specially modified tanker aircraft are being used to top up Aurora's tanks with liquid methane fuel in mid-air... The US Air Force is using the remote RAF airbase at Machrihanish, Strathclyde, as a staging point... The mystery aircraft has been dropping in at night before streaking back to America across the North Pole at more than six times the speed of sound... An F-111 fighter bomber is scrambling as the black-painted aircraft lands, flying in close formation to confuse prying civilian radars." The rationale used most frequently by the Department of Defense for the SR-71's termination was financial. The Blackbird's operation and maintenance costs were very high. According to some reports, the SR-71's O&M costs were nearly $710- million in FY-90 and FY-91.<46> Furthermore, they argued, imaging satellites could now conduct worldwide surveillance more efficiently and less expensively than manned reconnaissance aircraft. Independent aerospace analysts, however, deflated this argument somewhat by pointing to the unique advantages aircraft bring to the reconnaissance arena. Aircraft, for example, are inherently flexible and unpredictable. Though not as fast as satellites, they can fly lower and the interval between over the horizon arrival and time-over-target is just as short. Aircraft have a wide choice of routes, so tracking ships are unlikely to see it on the way in. Application of low observable technology could further reduce warning time.<47> Thus, it appears plausible that aircraft may still have a role in global reconnaissance. Another analyst has considered the possibilities of "Aurora's" characteristics and capabilities. A long-range reconnaissance follow-on to the SR-71 would be a blended delta with 75 degree leading-edge sweep and retractable low-speed foreplanes. It would be powered by two regenerative air-turboramjet (RATR) engines of 180 kN sea-level static thrust. It would carry a crew of two and use a synthetic aperture radar with real-time datalink for reconnaissance (Figure 4). It is suggested that this type of platform could be very responsive, much more easily maintainable than the SR-71 and could deliver imagery of most points of interest within six hours of the decision to go. A speed between Mach 5 and Mach 6 and a cruising altitude of 40 kilometers would make the aircraft invulnerable to any current missile system.<48> The Public Record Beginning in the mid-1980s, the Air Force and NASA have supported a number of studies of aircraft that are consistent with accounts of the Aurora project. Although these studies have not been linked to actual development efforts, they provide some insight into the potential configuration and capabilities of Aurora. In 1985 McDonnell Douglas conducted studies of a Mach 5, 12,000 km range 305 passenger HSCT (hypersonic commercial transport) powered by regenerative ATR (air turboramjet) engines. Initial research led to claims that this type of aircraft was not only feasible, but remarkably efficient. According to these studies, a ramjet was the best option at Mach 5, and that methane was the preferred fuel. Hydrogen was also considered, but it takes up to five times as much space. If the large HSCT was scaled down to the dimensions of an SR-71, the aircraft could have a range of approximately 10,000 miles with a crew of two and a 1 ton sensor suite.<49> Lockheed's renowned Skunk Works has been the incubator of several programs that could evolve, or could already have evolved, into an SR-71 replacement. Presently, Lockheed engineers are reportedly studying the development of a liquid methane- fueled aircraft that could penetrate enemy airspace in order to perform reconnaissance missions.<50> "The sleek aircraft would cruise at Mach 5 (3,350 mph) speed at a maximum altitude of about 100,000 feet. The aircraft would be made primarily of titanium with its outer edges constructed of Inconel, a heat-resistant stainless steel. At Mach 5 speed the leading edges of the air-frame would glow red above 1,000 degrees Fahrenheit. Power for this futuristic airplane would come from four turbo-ramjets. The engines would operate as turbojets at low speeds, but at higher speeds the compressor and turbine would be overridden so the engines would operate as ramjets." Other aircraft designs that would fly between Mach 4 and Mach 8, fueled by hydrocarbon or liquid hydrogen are also being considered.<51> And in the mid-1980s, Lockheed proposed a Mach 7-8 "transatmospheric vehicle" or TAV as an SR-71 replacement. Intriguingly enough, the name "Aurora" was also used in conjunction with this proposal.<52> In 1986, the Directorate for R&D Contracting, Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, issued an RFP for aircraft propulsion integration technology. The<61> "... purpose of the proposed investigation is to develop an improved foundation for manned aircraft air-breathing propulsion integration technology in the Mach 4 to 6 regime." Under an Air Force contract, Boeing Military Airplane Co. designed an interceptor capable of sustaining supersonic speeds. It was reported that wind tunnel tests would be conducted under a 26 month $572,000 follow-on contract.<62> This effort also included detailed studies of aircraft subsystems.<63> Similar studies were conducted by Lockheed<64> and General Dynamics.<65> Keeping an aircraft sufficiently cool during extreme speeds is a primary challenge of hypersonic flight. According to studies done by General Dynamics and Boeing, an aircraft travelling at between Mach 5.5 and Mach 6 would have an average skin temperature of approximately 1100-1300 degrees Fahrenheit.<66> One potential solution incorporated in the Air Force studies, also being explored by researchers at NASA's Langley Research Center and Wright-Patterson Air Force base,<67> is the use of Methylcyclohexane (MCH) as both the fuel and the thermal management medium of the vehicle. MCH has several advantages over other possible hydrocarbon or cryogenic fuels. Unlike standard hydrocarbon fuels, MCH has a very high capacity to absorb heat prior to combustion, up to 1800 Btu per pound of fuel, which is ten times the capacity of most hydrocarbon fuels.<68> Cryogenic Methane and Hydrogen have high heat absorbtion capacities as well, but their use as an aviation fuel is limited by the logistical difficulties of handling, storage and fuel boil off.<69> The principle behind MCH thermal management is based on a catalytic reaction transforming MCH into Toluene and Hydrogen, which are then used to fuel the aircraft:<70> A fuel pump pressurizes the fuel to... avoid boiling. The preheater heats the fuel to the proper reaction temperature while removing heat from a secondary coolant...After preheating, the fuel passes through the catalytic heat exchanger/ reactor... The secondary coolant, Syltherm, circulates to the hot spots to maintain skin temperatures to within specified tolerances.<71> One aerospace journal says that an aircraft travelling at Mach 6 would be inside the combustion envelope of a subsonic-combustion ramjet. It suggests that the aircraft would thus need an accelerator to get it moving. One type of accelerator would be a ducted-rocket cycle into the engine. A fuel-rich, liquid rocket exhaust would be injected into a ramjet duct, pumping air through it even at rest. A second combustion then takes place, using atmospheric oxygen.<72> (This second combustion could produce the loud rumbling noises heard recently in California, discussed below). Budget and Financial Data The first suggestion that these studies might be translated into operational hardware appeared in the Fiscal Year 1986 procurement program document, colloquially known as the P-1, dated 4 February 1985. A line item in this document, labeled "Aurora," was slated to receive $80 million in 1986, and over $2.2 billion in 1987.<73> Since this line item appeared next to the line funding the TR-1 reconnaissance aircraft, it stirred up a hornet's nest of conjecture that a secret aircraft was being developed to replace the aging SR-71. The Air Force quickly denied the existence of a secret program, and said the "Aurora" budget line was simply one site for B-2 bomber funds when that program was highly classified.<74> One Air Force official commented, "I wish I could say it is (an SR-71 follow-on), because we'd love to have it. But it's just accounting, I'm afraid."<75> Others disagreed. One journal reported that "the general consensus now is that the item did not refer to the B-2 bomber but to another effort."<76> Other analysts placed the SR-71 follow-on at both Edwards Air Force Base and Nellis Air Range.<77> Other publications saw a more complicated, more expansive black world. These periodicals posited that Aurora was one of several code names "nested within other code names, all referring to a class of aircraft designed for multiple missions."<78> However, the discussions of the Aurora budget line item overlook one very crucial fact: No money was ever appropriated for Aurora! In the February 1985 submission of the FY 1986 budget, the Aurora line item projected a request of over $2 billion in the FY 1987 budget. But one year later, when the FY 1987 budget was submitted, the Aurora line item had vanished as mysteriously as it had first appeared. Indeed, FY 1987 request for the overall Air Force aircraft procurement account was several billion dollars less than had be projected in 1985, and there were no line items in the FY 1987 request that could have been used to conceal a request for funding for Aurora. Much of the subsequent speculation on Aurora has implicitly assumed that there was an identifiable source of funding for the program. Although this is not obviously the case, there nonetheless remains one tantalizing, and previously unremarked, hint that the Aurora program was in fact funded, though at a significantly reduced scale. As previously noted, the case for the existence of all mystery aircraft, including Aurora, must be predicated on identifiable sources of funding. Thus the proper identification of the programmatic content of the major elements of the black budget is essential to assessing the status of mystery aircraft, such as Aurora. A not-implausible accounting has already been given that suggests an identifiable source of funding that may be attributed to the TR-3A stealth aircraft program. But where in the budget might other aircraft programs be funded? Some have assumed that the funding for the CIA and NRO is entirely hidden from view -- completely off-budget, or widely dispersed among a large number of accounts in many government agencies, or disguised in some obscure accounting transaction of the Federal Financing Bank, or perhaps secreted somewhere among the subsidy programs of the Agriculture Department. Under such assumptions, the billions of dollars appropriated each year for such programs as "Selected Activities" or "Special Programs" would provide more than enough money to finance a vast fleet of exotic aircraft. But a more detailed consideration of the classified budget provides little basis for believing that these line items might provide funding for such purposes. While the structure of the classified budget is obscure, it is not perverse. Line items in the budget may be given opaque names, like Selected Activities, which obscure their programmatic content, but there are no activities that are not included in some budget item, however obscurely. There are no off-budget programs. Other line items, such as "Special Programs" (the nomenclature used for the National Reconnaissance Office) may omit the value of the budget. But in such cases, a fair approximation of the omitted value may be obtained by subtracting the sum of those lines for which values are given from the total provided for the budget category which includes the omitted values. It may also be fairly assumed that the multitudinous Navy classified budget items, such as Chalk Coral and Retract Amber, are funding only Navy projects, rather than Air Force programs. And it may also be assumed that Aircraft Procurement accounts fund only aircraft, and that Missile Procurement accounts fund only missiles or space vehicles, though the more generic Other Procurement accounts clearly fund a wide range of programs. The Other Procurement Air Force account includes a line item opaquely labeled "Selected Activities," which typically accounts for about half of the total budget of this account. Analysis of the outlay rates for this and other budget accounts reveals an interesting anomaly. Procurement accounts, which fund the purchase of hardware, typically spend about 5% to 15% of their appropriation in the first year, with outlays rising to 20% to 40% in the second and third years, and declining thereafter. This reflects the contracting process, in which several years are required to complete manufacture of hardware. In contrast, personnel and operations and maintenance accounts, which are largely for payroll and supplies, typically have first year outlay rates of 50% to 80%. Uniquely, the Other Procurement Air Force account has a first year outlay rate that has ranged from over 40% to nearly 60%. The only possible explanation for this anomaly is that the "Selected Activities" half of the Other Procurement Air Force account is in fact not a procurement activity, with a low first-year outlay rate, but rather funds personnel and operating expenses, with their characteristic high first-year outlay rate. In recent years, the budget for the "Selected Activities" line item has been somewhat in excess of $5 billion annually. This value is consistent with the roughly $3 billion that is the reported budget of the Central Intelligence Agency, as well as the personnel and operations and maintenance budget of the National Reconnaissance Office. There is no reason to doubt this conclusion. However, the next line down from "Selected Activities" in the Other Procurement Air Force account is an item dubbed, "Special Update Program." This proximity in the budget is suggestive of some relationship in mission as well. It is plausible that this line item includes procurement of intelligence collection systems of interest to the CIA or Air Force, other than satellites, which are funded elsewhere in the budget. Funding for this line item peaked at over $900 million in 1985, then dropped to $84 million in 1986. This suggests that whatever activity was funded under this account in the early 1980s had been concluded. The same FY 1986 procurement program document, that included the $2.2 billion funding projection for Aurora in FY 1987 also projected that the FY 1987 funding for Special Update Program would be $139 million.<79> But when the actual FY 1987 budget was submitted a year later, not only had Aurora disappeared, but the Special Update Program budget request was $851 million, over $700 million more than had been projected a year earlier. It is not implausible that this reflected a decision not to proceed with production of an operational system which would have been funded under the Aurora line item, but instead to conduct some sort of prototype propulsion test program, funded under the Special Update Program line. The $1.5 billion appropriated for this account since 1987 would be consistent with such a prototype effort. Although this analysis is necessarily speculative, the coincidental behavior of these two budget line items is certainly highly suggestive. This also identifies a not- implausible source of funding for an experimental high-speed, high-altitude aircraft with primarily intelligence applications. Observer Reports A wide range of reports of observations of mysterious aerial phenomena have been associated with the Aurora aircraft. These observations are also in many regards consistent with the suggested Exotic Propulsion Aircraft. Those reports relating to both possibilities are discussed here, while those reports unique to the Exotic Propulsion Aircraft are discussed subsequently. These unexplained phenomena have led some to conclude that:<80> "...the US Government has secretly developed and deployed a hypersonic reconnaissance aircraft, probably as a replacement for the SR-71." There are two classes of reports relating to Aurora: those that are consistent with a limited experimental test program; and those that are suggestive of the existence of an operational capability. Edwards Air Force Base in southern California is the primary facility used by the American military for the flight testing of experimental aircraft. In addition, the Groom Lake facility at Nellis Air Force Base in Nevada was used for developmental testing of the F-117A, and has been associated with reports of other advanced aircraft. Given this geographical concentration, it would not be surprising if secret aircraft undergoing flight tests were to be observed in the Southwestern United States. In October 1990 Aviation Week & Space Technology published reports of:<81> "A high altitude aircraft that crosses the night sky at extremely high speed.... The vehicle typically is observed as a single, bright light -- sometimes pulsating -- flying at speeds far exceeding other aircraft in the area, and at altitudes estimated to be above 50,000 ft.... Normally, no engine noise or sonic boom is heard." More recently, a sighting by two British Airways pilots and other witnesses at Manchester Airport on January 6 1995 has been attributed to the Aurora aircraft. Probably the most compelling evidence for such flight tests are the series of unusual sonic booms chronicled above Southern California, beginning in mid to late 1991. On at least five occasions, these sonic booms were recorded by at least 25 of the 220 US Geological Survey sensors across Southern California used to pinpoint earthquake epicenters. The incidents were recorded in June, October, November, and late January 1991.<82> Seismologists estimate that the aircraft were flying at speeds between Mach 3 and 4 and at altitudes of 8 to 10 kilometers. The aircraft's flight path was in a North North-East direction, consistent with flight paths to secret test ranges in Nevada. Seismologists say that the sonic booms were characteristic of a smaller vehicle than the 37 meter long shuttle orbiter. Furthermore, neither the shuttle nor NASA's single SR-71B were operating on the days the booms were registered.<83> One of the seismologists, Jim Mori, noted:<84> "We can't tell anything about the vehicle. They seem stronger than other sonic booms that we record once in a while. They've all come on Thursday mornings about the same time, between 6 and 7 in the morning." These "skyquake" are a continuing phenomenon, with the most recent report over Orange County, CA coming on 20 July 1996. It is reported that the "quake" occurred around 3pm PST, fitting the "skyquake" pattern in the following respects: It occurred in a coastal area. Described as similar to an earthquake in some respects (rattling of loose objects, etc) but also like a boom (but no distinct double bang as far as is known). Severe enough to light up government and media switchboards, but no known damage. Not an earthquake (CalTech sensors saw nothing) Local military bases deny any knowledge. No known other source (eg explosion) Intercepted radio transmissions are equally intriguing:<85> "On Apr. 5 (a Sunday) and Apr. 22, radio hobbyists in Southern California monitored transmissions between Edwards AFB's radar control facility (Joshua Control) and a high-altitude aircraft using the call sign "Gaspipe." The series of radio calls occurred at approximately 6 a.m. local time on both dates. "Controllers were directing the unknown Gaspipe aircraft to a runway at Edwards, using advisories similar to those given space shuttle crews during a landing approach. The monitors recorded two advisories, both transmitted by Joshua Control to Gaspipe: "You're at 67,000, 81 mi. out," and "Seventy mi. out, 36,000. Above glide slope." Reported sightings of unusual high performance aircraft are not confined to the Southwestern United States. More recently, such observations have also been reported in other parts of the United States, as well as in Europe. These reports are particularly intriguing because they are difficult to reconcile with an experimental test program, since there would be no reason for test flights to be conducted in Europe. Rather, these reports would have to be understood in the context of the deployment of an operational aircraft. One unexplained set of observations was reported at Beale Air Force Base, the California facility that was long home to the SR-71. On two consecutive nights in late February 1992, observers reported sighting a triangular aircraft displaying a distinctive diamond-shaped lighting pattern, comprised of a red light near the nose -- similar to the F-117 configuration -- two 'whitish' lights near what would be conventional wingtips and an amber light near the tail.<86> While the wing lights are reportedly much brighter than normal navigation lamps, they do not illuminate the aircraft's planform. Observers claim the vehicle's wing lights are approximately twice as far apart as those on the F-117, and nose-to-tail light spacing is about 50 percent longer than that on the stealth fighter.<87> Reports of "unusually loud, rumbling sonic booms" near Pensacola, Florida in November 1991 have also been associated with the Aurora program.<88> At least 30 unexplained sonic booms have been reported in Southern California in late 1991 and early 1992.<89> By mid-1992 noted aviation observer Bill Sweetman concluded that, "The frequency of the sonic booms indicates that whatever is making them is now an operational aircraft."<90> In early 1992 it was reported that:<91> "... RAF radars have acquired the hypersonic target travelling at speeds ranging from about Mach 6 to Mach 3 over a NATO-RAF base at Machrihanish, Scotland, near the tip of the Kintyre peninsula, last November and again this past January." It was recently reported than on 27 September 1995 David Morris of Walsall, Cornwall UK took a picture of a triangular shaped plane being refueled by a KC-135, and flanked by a pair of F-111s. The unknown aircraft appeared to be about three-quarters the size of the KC-135. This picture has been widely distributed. However, the "refuelling" picture is a hoax -- it was montaged by Bill Rose for the October 1995 issue of Astronomy Now (UK) magazine. There, it is captioned "A simulation of the refuelling of the top secret 'Aurora'. Photo composition by Bill Rose."<92a> Interpretation In 1990, it was suggested that the Aurora (also reportedly designated "Senior Citizen") had been intended to be the SR-71's successor, but it had been canceled along with the "Blackbird" in 1989.<92> One report suggested that:<93> "Congress, in addition to killing the SR-71 late last year [1989], voted to terminate a $100 million "related classified activity" that may have been the follow-on effort." According to the Senate Armed Services Committee, in 1989:<94> "... the Congress directed the Department [of Defense] to develop a viable long-term roadmap for airborne reconnaissance. The Department has not done that and will not have that roadmap available until next year. Even then, the Department has proposed to initiate an extraordinarily expensive effort to reproduce the capabilities inherent in the SR-71. The committee cannot endorse that request..." Representative Robert Livingston (R-LA) noted during a January 1990 House Appropriations Committee hearing that:<95> "The possible follow-ons (to the SR-71), which again we can't even talk about, even if we were going ahead with them, wouldn't be available for many years, six or seven years, and we are not going ahead with them." Addressing the prospects for an SR-71 follow-on, Air Force Chief of Staff Lawrence Welch noted that:<96> "There are a couple of programs... Frankly, we have not found them too promising." These official pronouncements are difficult to reconcile with other forms of evidence suggesting the existence of an SR-71 follow-on

Check the dates that these planes were being tested, where they flew to etc. All quite interesting.

Again sorry for long post

Regards

Andy
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Postby Observer » Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:43 pm

Hi Andy

Phew, check out the Russian AJAX hypersonic aircraft Mach 10 +, They have tackled the temp problem using plasma and ION technology. The aircraft directs a beam of some thing? in front of it which strips the air of ion molicules thus the on coming air has much less friction when going over the sufaces. I probably got this all wrong but check out the web sites.

Observer
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Postby SouthyR1 » Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:55 pm

Hi Observer,

Again sorry for long post.
Have checked out the Russian AJAX hypersonic aircraft.
Could it be possible that this might have been used or was it designed after the incident, or could the tecnology of been designed but never used but was an early test bed for future designs??

For anyone wanting a read it can be found here.
http://www.aeronautics.ru/plasmamain.htm

Regards

Andy
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Postby SouthyR1 » Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:30 pm

This definatly makes for interesting reading, maybe this could be what was or ended up in the forest!!
With Larry Warrens description about seeing 3 men in suites it might make sense to why there were so many nights spent out in the forest, maybe all of them were recovery missions for not 1 but 3 escape modules that Penniston didnt know about??

The B-58 gave an impression of being a very big fighter jet. This was emphasized by the seating arrangement, which was much more like that of a fighter than a bomber. There were three crew members, including pilot, bombardier-navigator, and defense systems operator (DSO), with each sitting in his own individual enclosure in tandem, accessed by separate clamshell doors on top of the fuselage.

There was no room to move around, except for a crawlway between the second and third seats. The crew was essentially strapped into their seats as they would be in a fighter; a "clothesline" system was fitted along the cabin wall to allow them to pass notes or small items back and forth. The pilot had a good view through a six-piece windscreen, with his seat offset so he didn't have to stare through the center post, but the two back-seaters had to make do with small windows on either side of their seats.

Early production featured conventional rocket-boosted ejection seats, but in 1962, after the deaths of aircrew in high-speed ejections, a new "escape capsule" was developed that sealed each crewman into a clamshell capsule to improve his chances of survival in a supersonic ejection. The capsule would self-stabilize after ejection; had inflatable floatation devices for water landings; and featured a survival kit, including a radio, a survival rifle, and even a change of clothing. The escape capsule was retrofitted to older B-58s. Incidentally, according to Air Force records, the escape capsule was tested using a live bear as a subject. There is undoubtedly an interesting story behind this, but if so, it's hard to figure out where it might be found.

Not all aircrews were enthusiastic about the escape capsule, preferring the earlier, simpler ejection seats. Their reasoning was that it was very unlikely that anyone would survive an abrupt catastrophe at Mach 2, and in less immediate emergencies the aircraft would be subsonic very rapidly. One B-58 was lost when the windscreen was shattered by hail and the pilot's capsule went shut; although he had some limited ability to control the aircraft from inside the capsule, that didn't include throttle settings, and he couldn't open up the capsule before he ejected even though the B-58 had passed out of the hailstorm. The crew punched out, with the navigator being killed when his parachute didn't open. After that, a cable was added to allow reopening the capsule.

The B-58's construction was as innovative as its appearance. Much of the aircraft was made of sandwich panel composed of fiberglass sheet faced by thin aluminum on each side, a scheme that proved both strong and heat-resistant, as required for Mach 2 flight. In areas where the fiberglass sandwich wasn't strong enough, a similar sandwich scheme with thin aluminum sheet filler was substituted. In areas exposed to unusual levels of heat, as was the case in areas under the wing near the engine exhausts, a sandwich material based on stainless steel was used. The panels were held in place by titanium screws.

The end result was an aircraft with a remarkably low empty weight. There was literally a price to pay, however, since fabricating the honeycomb sheets to the desired tolerances was a difficult and expensive process, and fitting the panels in place on the aircraft during manufacture was equally troublesome. Expensive high-precision jigs were required. Worse, replacing a panel in the field meant placing the entire aircraft in such a high-precision jig. This made maintenance difficult, to say the least, particularly in comparison to other aircraft in the USAF inventory.

The aircraft's GE J79 engines were another marvel. They had an inlet spike that automatically adjusted for airflow and reduced the chances of high-speed engine stall. In afterburner, the engines could easily move the Hustler to its redline speed of Mach 2.2. They could provide even more thrust in an emergency, but the airframe itself simply wasn't strong enough to fly any faster.

Everyones thoughts appreciated

Andy
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Postby Observer » Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:36 pm

Thats interesting

The B-58 was in and out of Greenham Common in those days, as i saw them for myself. Any pictures of the escape system.

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Hi observer

Postby SouthyR1 » Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:41 pm

Not the best pic in the world but all i could find

http://www.aviation-history.com/convair/b58-8.jpg

It is an interesting piece of evidence, but is it relevant!!!?????
For me i think it could be?
Andy :shock:
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Postby Observer » Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:21 pm

Nice one Andy

It could have been what was seen in the forest. Would all 3 crew stay together on ejection? This may explain Warren's remark of 3 people in alleged space suits. We now need to delve into what types of systems were aboard the module for finding and recovering the crew.

Just a short note on the 'Hustler'. It became very vulnerable to Russian SAM's and it had no terrain following radar system as did some RAF aircraft of the time. It was seen as a 'one way mission' aircraft that the US Government were not prepared to accept. This was told to me by a Hustler pilot at one of the Mildenhall open days years ago. It was also the first USAF aircraft to have a 'voice over' computer which was plugged into the crews helmuts and it gave them electronic voice messages.
I still have the photo.

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Hi observer

Postby SouthyR1 » Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:58 pm

To be honest i am not 100% sure whether all crew members would of stayed together on ejection.
Now picture this,
A 3 man crew are on a mission ( spectulating but stay with me )
They develop a problem and the escape module seals up ( this is evident in the earlier post that the pilot had limited control of the plane once the module closed )
They have radioed ahead ( maybe to be Woodbridge ) that they have developed a problem and need to make an emergency landing.
No one apart from top brass at Woodbridge/Bentwaters know this plane is on its mission, reccy, etc.
The pilot decides he is unable to make the runway, and decides that he and two crew mates punch out.
At this point Bentwaters reports light over the forest near Woodbridge base.
The crew punch out in their modules. And float to the ground in diferent areas(3 landing sites probably) with sos flares showing as they went down.
The men at East Gate spot these lights and investigate( including Larry ).
By now the crew have landed ( possibly two in forest and one in the field described by Larry ) the two in the forest get out of the modules, and using their torches (possibly with red lenses, piecing all previous threads together now) leave their modules in search of fellow crew members ( these lights could of been the red lights the airmen saw???? ) they had radioes so could of been in touch with each other which could explain interference on security members radioes??
They rendevous at the field, where they are approached by said top brass, and tell the men they are talking to that this is a hush hush test mission and need to be recovered.
This is promptly done by the ARRS over three nights, and on one such night they accidently hit the landing lights, damaging them.
it also explains the tree tops being damaged etc.
These modules are promptly hidden at one of the bases before the plane seen a few days later, flies in and picks them off.
I believe the airmen in the forest had no idea what they were seeing, only the top people involved at both bases were informed about this aircrafts new type of ejection system and for reasons unbeknown to us didnt want anyone, i.e the russians, to know about these new capabilities.
Most of this story and evidence tie in to what they saw ( well some of it anyway ).
Anything people want to add on to this, which i have missed out, fell free.

Thanks for taking time to read my post.
Keep thinking people!!

Andy[/i]
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