Devil's Advocate

[Shearwater]

And you know this how?

[Deep Purple]

I'm fairly sure that in Ben Riche's Skunk Works he said the F117a arrived in the UK during the early 80s-- this would be logical as it was a top secret strike weapon to be used aginst the Russians.
But I cant find my copy of the book--- so I do stand to be corrected on this.
Anyone out there got the book and can help?
Ben Riche was head of the Skunk Works so I guess he would know.

[puddlepirate]

A comment on Senior Trend (which was not a prototype but a development aircraft - and if you are developing a stealth then surely you want to fly it against advanced radars...)

"Ben said 'Okay.' The rest of us said, 'Oh, shit.'" Original F-117A program manager Alan Brown on Ben Rich accepting the USAF's deadline of 22 months from contract to first flight of the F-117A.

On November 16,1978, Lockheed was awarded a contract for five full scale development (FSD) test aircraft under the code name Senior Trend. The Senior Trend aircraft came to be defined as a single-seat night surgical strike fighter, with no radar but a very comprehensive electro-optical system for aiming its weapons. Because it was intended to operate at night, and had no radar, there was no requirement for any air-to air capability. Apart from it's low observable (LO) design, its most unusual feature was associated with it's covert mission: the outer wings were removable, allowing the aircraft to be stowed inside a C-5 transport.

[C-5 Galaxy with F-117A onboard. (LMSW)} The C-5 would ferry the fighter and its support crew into a base (quietly and discreetly at night) within striking distance of its target.(Note: this was how many of the first aircraft were delivered to Groom Lake. In fact, the image to the right shows a crated up Senior Trend F-117A being loaded aboard at the Skunk Works in Burbank. This method was later abandoned in favor of aerial refueling during flying with the thought that by the time an aircraft was disassembled, transported, and reassembled the crisis would be over.) The USAF saw the Senior Trend aircraft as one that would be used singly or in pairs against a small range of targets. Not many would be needed, explaining the initial order of only 20 aircraft.

22 months from Oct 1978 is July 1980 - Senior Trend first flew in July 80. These aircraft became the first production F-117A that came into service in 1981. F-117A was actually a bomber, not a fighter but because pilots are attracted to fighters not bombers, it was given the F designator because the USAF wanted to attract the best pilots to the programme. But of course, you all knew that....

Also, I worked for BT for 8 years. Martlesham is where BT develop advanced communications technology. The tower at Martlesham is a technical replica of the BT tower in London (nr Warren St station). We regularly hosted client events in the revolving restaurant at the top which clients loved because the tower was closed to the pubic following an attack by the IRA. BT are not into weapons technology. They might well develop the comms to enable controllers to talk to weapons or they might be involved in battlefield comms but it's COMMS not weapons that BT get involved in. BT opened its first System X digital exchange at Baynard House, London in Sept 80 and it's first local System X exchange at Woodbridge in 1981. The dishes on the the towers at both sites are for comms not weapons or radars.

[Wolf]

http://www.f-117a.com/Senior.html

http://www.vectorsite.net/avf117_1.html

Wolf

[Observer]

Thanks Wolf, ST and Puddle

Some good info and phots. It was puddle and myself some years ago now that saw a likeness in Jim's sketches and the nose/cockpit section [no wings attached] of an F-117 looking head on. Have another look at Jim's sketches and his verbal description and the F117 head on [ if we can find a head on pic and put it along side Jim's sketches]. Not only that it was the remarks made by Jim that it was smooth to the touch and warm.The lights were buried under the surface etc, check out the F-117 paint job and NAV lights, there was nothing protruding above the surfsace skin of the aircraft. Some body else said, "Its one of ours from the future", that's a pretty profound thing to say, but it would have been my reaction as well if I came across some thing like that out of the blue in a dark cold woods at night especially in 1980. I know the time lines for this aircraft to have been involved are highly questionable, but John said he saw an F-117a in 1980 and I was told from another source that one was in the UK for radar trials and other classified things and had been flown in by a C-5.

Obs

[Shearwater]

All of which ignore the basic problems with the RFI / F-117 thesis, which are:

a) The F-117 is obsolete technology: if one had been dropped into the forest 30 years ago by mistake, there'd be no issues with a USAF spokesman admitting it now! They are happy to admit the possibility that the Chinese have back-engineered the one that was lost in the Balkans!
b) It is a matter of record that the F-117 did not fly until the Summer of 1981. I know for a fact that radar intrusion trials were carried out at Groom Lake that year, because I have a close friend who operated a radar station there!

(And no: like everyone else on here, I can't reveal his i/d, except to say he was a Fighter Controller at Neatishead who retired and became an ATC at Heathrow.)

[Observer]

Its no good giving us I know a man who knows a man who knows a man. Where have I heard that before.

[puddlepirate]

It's not the aircraft - the aircraft is old hat and phots were available circa 1989 when it became public knowledge. It's the mission that is the problem and even then not so much the mission itself but what the aircraft was carrying. Further to that it is known that the USAF fly false flag ops out of RAF Lakenheath, even today. The most recent, according to a Channel 4 documentary broadcast in 2010, used USAF aircraft in Israeli colours leaving Lakenheath at night and returning several hours later in the early morning. These aircraft have been observed and recorded by aircraft spotters at the base. A quick calculation of mission duration x speed of aircraft (for aircraft type) gave an estimation of a target in the Middle East. Perfectly possible given in 1986 it was aircraft from Lakenheath that bombed Tripoli.

Also, the two Have Blue aircraft suffered total loss accidents with the wreckage buried in the desert to the north of Groom Lake. Unlike the smaller, 70% sized Have Blue, Senior Trend were full sized aircraft. Lastly. also in LAEG, LW mentions that on the afternoon he was detained by security, he recalls seeing a pilot on base with a squadron patch of a type not seen before. See page 321 of the 1997 hardback copy of LAEG.

The evidence will never be found on this forum. instead of circular arguments about the lighthouse and what Halt and his men and the witnesses heard or saw, or deriding what others say, some of you need to get out and about, dig deep, submit FoI requests to the USAF and UK MoD, search the UK National Archive at Kew, West London, talk to guys who served in the USAF and those who served in the RAF and RN at the time, plus visit Rendlesham, Orford and Orfordness and don't forget the local civvies - in other words, get off your arses and do the research. Anyone who has served knows full well that you are not told about everything that goes on, only what you need to know and if the job involves sneaky beaky ops then you keep your gob tight shut when out of the office.

[Observer]

Thanks puddle
Totally aggree and having worked in the miltary [RAF/UKWMO] for over 25 years including the cold war period from 1960 onwards untill the collapse of the Soviet Union, I can vouch for how things were done. Every thing was on a need to know basis and your security classification. You also had to have certain levels of security clearence to enter some establishments, some were out of bounds and others weren't.
To argue about whether the F-117a was around in 1980 and in the UK is a non productive argument, it was only the likeness of Jim's sketches and the nose of a F-117 that we had pointed out as vaguely similar. I have done a vast amount of research over several years into the RFI, most of it jointly with a colleague and we have amassed some very interesting data that has pointed us in a particular direction. I'm not about to reveal all my hard work to newbies on this site. I suggest you get off your butts and do your own research instead of being arm chair experts.

If you want to hang on every word Brenda Butler says, do so, if you want to believe in little green men from Mars do so, if you want to believe in flying saucers do so,if you want to believe that aliens have visited us, do so its a free country, but show me the hard evidence that they have.
Only 20% of evidence is accurate, Metropolitan Police official statistics.

[Shearwater]

As usual, 'Observer' you sound off with nothing but your need for self-validation to back up your arguments. Being a 'newbie' on this forum doesn't indicate a recently-discovered interest in the topic, nor a propensity for sitting on one's butt'.

As a matter of fact, I held a commission in one of the armed forces, was the pilot of a nuclear-competent aircraft, have loads of relevant academic qualifications and have been researching UFO-related phemonena for longer than you've been allowed out alone. The Fighter Controller at Neatishead was a really good friend of mine: we took beer-call together, fished together and I was the best man at his wedding. He recently passed away from MS. There is no reason to publish his name: his widow really doesn't need people like you harrassing her.

I have been visiting RF since 1978 (Yes: really!) and visited Warminster / Pembrokeshire / Kintyre etc etc many times talking to people and recording data. I have met and made my own assessments of most of the major RFI principals (CH, LW, JP, JB, BB, etc.)

I have been reearching paranormal phenomena since the 60s and was an active Scientific consultant to a number of Loch Ness expeditions in the 70s. I count among my personal friends many of the better-known RFI investigators, as well as legendary researcher / Fortean archivist RL Fanthorpe.

And you? Are you a 'police engineer' (Even John Hanson has no idea what that might be!) An RAF WMO? An investigative journalist? Whatever your background, it's ludicrous for you to pretend that you alone possess all the answers to this intriguing event, and reprehensible for you to be so scathing of others with different opinions (BB, for instance)

[John Burroughs]

Observer Talk about calling the kettle black. My friend at the 67th who I can't use his name says. Well anyway I can see nobody beleives that at least some of whats was going on was military Ops and testing involving EM. I'm glad everybody knows for sure what was going on at Martlesham. I wonder why the plessey defense system branch was working out of there along with GE. And Observer how do you know that what was going on didnot effect the locals plus it didnot all have to do with being man made also some of it could be natural also.

[puddlepirate]

Plessey, Marconi and GE made comms kit for ships and other naval/military installations (including, for HM ships, the onboard telephone switching equipment). BT T1/T2 ccts were used for the DCN and DTN. BT also managed the LF transmitters at Rugby (the tall antenna masts located at the site and which used to be visible from the M1 motorway, have since been taken down). At Bentwaters, in a space behind the ops room (now part of the BWCM) was the BT frame room that contained the IDF, MDF and - I think but this needs to be cnfirmed - the Strowger switching kit. Again I'm not absolutely sure but on the other side of the ops room corridor, opposite to the BT frame room was the interface with the US Autovon system.

Georgina Bruni stated in YCTP on p246 (Pan Books, London (2001) paperback edition; ISBN 0 330 39021 X) that there was a huge increase in flash traffic at the time of the incident. Flash (Z) is the highest precedence for signal messages and has a desk to desk handling time of 'as fast as humanly possible, within ten minutes' because of this flash messages use an abbreviated format, are very short and sent unencrypted. They are most frequently used to inform the command or officers in the field of a crucial situation, e.g. to warn of an imminent enemy attack or so forth where encryption is not necessary. The exception being a comms check message sent from the operators at each end of a circuit to make sure a circuit is up and working. Generally speaking a 'releasing officer' will authorise the release of signal message and approve the precedence. On the Autovon system only certain persons were authorised to use 'flash' for telephone traffic. Use of 'flash' for telephone calls would bump all lower predence traffic on the telephone system. Therefore, nobody used 'flash' unless the situation was very serious indeed - and had been confirmed as such, i.e.the threat has been confirmed, is imminent and the situaion is grave. Nobody uses 'flash' to get his or her boss out of bed to report odd lights. The base would had to have been under attack (which we know it was not) or there had to have been a confirmed incident of such severity that commanders of certain UK USAF bases, pehaps also MoD and probably also USAF bases in Europe, most likely Ramstein, had to be informed as a matter of utmost urgency. If what GB states is true, then whatever happened had to be serious, very serious indeed. Even during major NATO exercises, the highest precedence for most signal message traffic was Immediate (O).

During 1980, aircraft were dropping out of the east of England sky like flies. Not only USAF but also RAF aircraft (from Hansard, 1995)

12 February Hunter FGA9 Isle of Skye
5 March Phantom FGR2 RAF Coningsby, Lincolnshire
12 March Harrier GR3 2¾ nm SE of Lampeter, Dyfed
17 March Hunter GA11 English Channel, 10 nm SSW of Start Point
29 April F-111E Mappenton, Dorset
8 May Jet Provost T5A Near RAF Swinderby, Lincolnshire
17 May Hawk T1 Brighton sea front, Sussex
28 May Hunter FGA9 3 nm SE of Dufftown, Morayshire
29 May Hunter T7 1 nm S of Little Saxham, Suffolk
3 June Phantom FG1 RAF Alconbury, Cambridgeshire
31 July Jet Provost T3A ½ nm S of RAF Elvington, North Yorkshire
19 August Hawk T1 RAF Valley, Anglesey
12 November Phantom FGR2 North Sea, 50 nm NE of Cromer
17 November Nimrod MR2 RAF Kinloss, Morayshire
18 November 2 x A-10A Great Yarmouth, Norfolk
1 December Sea Harrier FRS1 English Channel, 25 nm S of Land's End
9 December Phantom FGR2 North Sea, 10 nm NE of Lowestoft

Aircraft accidents were no big secret and were frequently reported in the local press complete with photos. Therefore the RFI was not an aircraft accident per se, at least not a regular aircraft accident.

i've not posted for ages and I've no intention of posting again. The answer is there - go look for it but don't bother looking under UFO because you'll be wasting your time.

[Observer]

John

Of course I don't know for sure what was going on at the BT research centre at Martlesham Heath, I never said I did. I asked as many people as I could, some who used to work there and are now retired, none mentioned anything about EM.
I went up to Suffolk to see old friends who worked there, so I have put the mileage in and asked the questions.
I checked all the Web sites and there is nothing conclusive in any of them that can give us good reason to point the finger. I'm the one with others trying to help you, remember justice for you guys. If I find out anything that remotely suggests they were doing EM experiments, you will be the first to know. Plessey were a radio comms company, but if they were doing other research at MH, then its not documented in all the places I looked.

Quite honestly, I'm not sure I want to carry on with this line of enquiry when you get critisised by the people you are trying to help. Thats me finnished. Over and out.

[Observer]

Puddle thats exactly how I read it. A very serious incident.

The F-4 lost near Lowestoft was from my temp base Wattisham, he suffered a flame out.

Obs

[John Burroughs]

I liked to know where this came from because thats somthing I can follow up with. Which day did it happen the 26th or 27th. Or is this like what was posted before about the Appollo training module that was at Woodbridge then moved to Florida where somthing was posted that it to was involved with Rendlesham. If so then we have several different objects that were involved with what happened to us. Please post the source so I can follow up with my congressmen on this..

[Ignis Fatuus]

[epl442]

Plessey, Marconi and GE made comms kit for ships and other naval/military installations (including, for HM ships, the onboard telephone switching equipment). BT T1/T2 ccts were used for the DCN and DTN. BT also managed the LF transmitters at Rugby (the tall antenna masts located at the site and which used to be visible from the M1 motorway, have since been taken down). At Bentwaters, in a space behind the ops room (now part of the BWCM) was the BT frame room that contained the IDF, MDF and - I think but this needs to be cnfirmed - the Strowger switching kit. Again I'm not absolutely sure but on the other side of the ops room corridor, opposite to the BT frame room was the interface with the US Autovon system.

Georgina Bruni stated in YCTP on p246 (Pan Books, London (2001) paperback edition; ISBN 0 330 39021 X) that there was a huge increase in flash traffic at the time of the incident. Flash (Z) is the highest precedence for signal messages and has a desk to desk handling time of 'as fast as humanly possible, within ten minutes' because of this flash messages use an abbreviated format, are very short and sent unencrypted. They are most frequently used to inform the command or officers in the field of a crucial situation, e.g. to warn of an imminent enemy attack or so forth where encryption is not necessary. The exception being a comms check message sent from the operators at each end of a circuit to make sure a circuit is up and working. Generally speaking a 'releasing officer' will authorise the release of signal message and approve the precedence. On the Autovon system only certain persons were authorised to use 'flash' for telephone traffic. Use of 'flash' for telephone calls would bump all lower predence traffic on the telephone system. Therefore, nobody used 'flash' unless the situation was very serious indeed - and had been confirmed as such, i.e.the threat has been confirmed, is imminent and the situaion is grave. Nobody uses 'flash' to get his or her boss out of bed to report odd lights. The base would had to have been under attack (which we know it was not) or there had to have been a confirmed incident of such severity that commanders of certain UK USAF bases, pehaps also MoD and probably also USAF bases in Europe, most likely Ramstein, had to be informed as a matter of utmost urgency. If what GB states is true, then whatever happened had to be serious, very serious indeed. Even during major NATO exercises, the highest precedence for most signal message traffic was Immediate (O).

During 1980, aircraft were dropping out of the east of England sky like flies. Not only USAF but also RAF aircraft (from Hansard, 1995)

12 February Hunter FGA9 Isle of Skye
5 March Phantom FGR2 RAF Coningsby, Lincolnshire
12 March Harrier GR3 2¾ nm SE of Lampeter, Dyfed
17 March Hunter GA11 English Channel, 10 nm SSW of Start Point
29 April F-111E Mappenton, Dorset
8 May Jet Provost T5A Near RAF Swinderby, Lincolnshire
17 May Hawk T1 Brighton sea front, Sussex
28 May Hunter FGA9 3 nm SE of Dufftown, Morayshire
29 May Hunter T7 1 nm S of Little Saxham, Suffolk
3 June Phantom FG1 RAF Alconbury, Cambridgeshire
31 July Jet Provost T3A ½ nm S of RAF Elvington, North Yorkshire
19 August Hawk T1 RAF Valley, Anglesey
12 November Phantom FGR2 North Sea, 50 nm NE of Cromer
17 November Nimrod MR2 RAF Kinloss, Morayshire
18 November 2 x A-10A Great Yarmouth, Norfolk
1 December Sea Harrier FRS1 English Channel, 25 nm S of Land's End
9 December Phantom FGR2 North Sea, 10 nm NE of Lowestoft

Aircraft accidents were no big secret and were frequently reported in the local press complete with photos. Therefore the RFI was not an aircraft accident per se, at least not a regular aircraft accident.

i've not posted for ages and I've no intention of posting again. The answer is there - go look for it but don't bother looking under UFO because you'll be wasting your time.

Came accross this thread lookin for the elusive warren pics.
Many of you will be familiar with operation aeneid in the 1970s.I have a letter here from the pentagon when i was an active ufologist.They replied in question to documentation on capt schaffner,his bizare disappearance from his electric lightning fighter & why the pilot of the spotter plane reported he was ok.When the plane was recovered the cockpit had not been fired & the outer explosive bolts were intact.
In reply the pentagon air force rep said " WE HAVE NO RECORD OF A MISHAP ON THE DAY IN QUESTION"
mishap?! american pilot goes missing defending the UK & its a mishap?! charming.On a lighter note i was lucky enough to see the harrier lose it near the claremont pier in lowestoft few years back at the air show.Woman behind us says-"was it sposed to do that"? 5000 blokes look at her in disgust lol.

[Deep Purple]

I* alway think Georgini Bruni's book was well presented and researched-- Georgini RIP love.
It always fascinated me the bit about the Flash Messages. Are there any radio operators admin personel that can now confirm this?