CIA using us

[puddlepirate]

Hi Ian

Yes, crystal clear. It confirms that what they saw on the second night was not the lighthouse and as it would seem the second night was the more important - Halt tape, SP in the forest in numbers and so forth, we can now move on and forget all about the lighthouse.

Many thanks.

[redsocks]

Hi All,
I have always dismissed the lighthouse theory and took a look for myself of the area and came up with the conclusion that the airmen were indeed following the lighthouse because basically from where they started to where they finished in the field at Capel Green is directly on line with the lighthouse.For somebody who doesent know the lighthouse is there and in the dead of night it does look earie and I can only think that after the first nights excitment this only fueled their hysteria.I think we can safetly say the lighthouse is a big player in this tale and forms part of the airmens BS.Check out http://www.abacuspub.com click on flight sims packages then mission combat force sim.Familiar game on there but they did get the wrong base!

Redsocks

[Observer]

Hi all

I think some of you are missing the point, yes, one or two people saw the light house and we are not arguing that they didn't but there was some thing else going on in the forest unrelated to the light house.

Observer

[redsocks]

[quote="Observer"]Hi all

I think some of you are missing the point, yes, one or two people saw the light house and we are not arguing that they didn't but there was some thing else going on in the forest unrelated to the light house.

Observer[/quote]

Hi Observer,Hi All

All I'm saying is that the lighthouse forms part of the story and I think we can safetly dismiss its involvement.It was spotted and followed and proberly on the night recognised for what it was.There was definatly something else going on in the forest on the second night and for me that is where the weapon/object falling off an aircraft theory comes into play.The USAF were in the forest in big numbers for a reason,but why were they there?....There is some strength behind the capsule event happening on a prior night and was it this seen from east gate or was it indeed something that fell off an aircraft but spotted guarded and collected on the later night? Something that has always puzzled me on the first night was that Burrows says in he's statement that 80 trained security spotters saw the object fly vertically out of the forest...yet only two have come forward??also Burrows said he was there the following morning, did he ever leave the site or was he and other security guards assigned to guard what it was all night?.For me the greater interest lies in the second night,the Halt tape, the amount of men used the gear the lightalls etc would not have been used if there wasnt a very good reason to do so, like has been said before they were acting on british land and they would have had to have very good reason to be in the forest so manned up with so much gear,it must have been some sort of rescue that only the 81st security police and the 67th ARRS and the base commanders knew about.If we are going to get to the bottom of this we need to find out what was recovered and the few that know wont tell for obvious reasons,really the information is going to have to come from a non military source which will be difficult but not impossible..


Redsocks

[Deep Purple]

I would slightly caution taking any statement from those main players directly involved at face value. I know this goes against the grain, but they could all have been "nobbled" ie told what to say.
I'm not saying that any of them are lying, but this is not a straight foraward criminal or civil investigation, indeed far from it.
I feel those on the far outside of the event are far less likely to have been " nobbled" and you may wish to rely upon those statements made at the time. The security services can be pretty effective at keeping things quiet.
For example the Lockheed Blackbird is still supposed to be the fastest aircraft ever made, but this was 30 years ago, and the car parks of the Lockheed Skunk works are full to this day, What are they doing? f117a is old tech now, they will be developing something but you wont know what it is.
It occurs to me did they test some type of non lethal weapon designed to confuse people?
The US has "family friendly" non lethal weapons.
It also has developed some fantastic hardware such as centrifuge weapon.
Keeping thinking people---- your doing well

[puddlepirate]

Gentlemen (and ladies)

I believe now that Halt and his men were telling the absolute truth. They reported exactly what they saw - but perhaps it was what somebody wanted them to see. We need to think much wider and between the lines. Think about 1980. Consider such things as the secondary role of the ARRS and the significance of the service torch with a red gel over the lens. Consider also that it was not what was ON the tapes from RAF Watton that was important. Probably more important was anything recorded by RAF Bawdsey.

That said, I think we need to accept that we will only be able to piece together about 80% of what actually happened and that we have no need to know the rest. I am also convinced there was absolutely no cover up, just need to know. In fact, I'm now surprised that even in 1986 - the year Skycrash (Randles, J. et al) was publised - attempts at prying too deeply were not met with a far more robust reaction.

[Deep Purple]

________________
"I believe now Halt and his men were telling the truth" they may well be , but we have no proof that they are, plenty of professional. distinguished people can lie through thier teeth when there is money involved just bear this in mind, just be careful!
With these type of events they will never give a "robust reaction ", because it shows you have hit a nevre.
Allways they will spin disinformation/ lies/ part truths to try and keep us away from what happened. Indeed Halt's latest admissions to be screened admissions could be part of a disninformation campain.
Have you watched " Billion Dollar Secret" by Nick Cook from Jaynes, well worth a watch to get your head around what can go on.
I'm sorry I have to disagree as I do think something has been covered up, but welcome your thoughts on why this is not the case?
I am open to reason and with good thinking or evidence I am quite happy to change my mind on this aspect.
What do people think?

[Observer]

Hi deep purple

I now believe that all if not most of those that described what they saw in the forest are telling the truth. They described what they saw to the best of their ability even though they did not know what it was they were looking at.

It was important enough to warrant a cover up which is why the UFO story came about.

Observer

[redsocks]

Hi All,

I believe the airmen said what they saw to an extent,but have added bits here and there to hype things up not for there own gain but because the powers that be forced them to do so.Ive always believed that they saw something cos when they are being interviewed their body language so looks like they are telling the truth,they really believe in what they are saying.
I would like to talk about larry warrens involvment in the incident,If and this is a big if he was actually there he is the only guy who dares to come forward over the incident.Warren may hold the key in all this if it can be proven indeed that he was actually there.....

Redsocks

[Observer]

Hi redsocks

Yes, lets talk about Larry. I think that some of his descriptions and observations out in the forest [if he is not telling porkies and was there] do go along with a new theory i'm working on. I have to say that it is far from complete and may never be.

Larry was seen as a bit of a rebel by the 'brass' mainly due to certain observations he made public and which few if no body else mentioned.

I think Larry's book Left at East Gate contains a lot of truth if you are prepared to read between the lines. However, i do feel that he or his co writer Peter Robbins have embelished it a tad.

Larry seems to be the only one to have had threats made against him by the US authorities [there may have been others] and this is because of what he made public.

None of the airmen knew what they were looking at, but at the same time they were in my opinion quite accurate in their descriptions which worried the US, theres a clue.

I don't doubt for one minute that some were put through the grinder on de briefing as this event was, yes was of defence significance. I will leave it there for the moment.

Observer

[Deep Purple]

But was Larry there?
He could have been and be telling the truth, but other people cant recall seeing him, but the then if you had an amazing/scary incident happening with a lot of personnel around would you necessarily remember him being there?. Think about for example the awful case of Maddie Mcann, some people say Robert Murat was there and others say no. And this is a case with no goverment agencies etc trying to hide anything and look how confusing this is.
Going back to basics if this was just a simple hoax/ joke etc why did Halt keep the dicataphone tape for years after the event? Assuming it was made at the time.
He was promoted afterwards. No one can really say to this day what happened. These 3 basic facts indicate soemthing very unusuall happened and Halt was successful in containing it or covering it up. Also Halt himself may not know what really went on.
My guess is a top secret technology demonstrtor went a bit wrong in the woods and the recovery of this is what caused the problems/ myth etc.
For years there have been stories about silent hovering triangular aircraft seen around the US, was what they saw the technology demonstrator for this type of craft?
The Billion Dollar Secret is well worth a watch to get a feel for what might be going on

[Observer]

Was he or wasn't he there, thats the big question, Some say he was and others say no way.
Your post tells me that you are in the right ball park but not near the goal mouth yet.

There are certain things that Larry said and which others were too scared to say tell me that Larry could have been there.
Most protaganists have distanced themselves from Larry such as the main players like Halt and Penniston, not because they think he is nutty or a free loader, but because he has scared the 's--t' out of them.

The UFO story and having the Apollo training module at Woodbridge was a god send for the US authorities and they are very happy for that to continue.
I have seen the billion Dollar secret by Nick Cooke and although very interesting is to a point conjecture. I don't doubt though that there are some 'scary' new black projects going on, whether that includes these 'triangles' you mention, who knows?

The B-1 Spirit was a billion Dollar secret, so was the F-117 and the more recent topic of the 'Aurora' which is still denied after nearly 25 years. The B-1 and F-117 both stayed 'black' for an average of 18 years before they became public knowledge. The SR-71 and U-2 were million Dollar secrets and remained black for at least 10 years respectfully.

Most of us have missed the point, in as much that those out in the forest were only allowed to see what the US authorities wanted them to see in the recovery of said object.
There are plenty more clues that have yet to be looked at. Most are little 'give away' lines and off hand remarks plus Pennistons note pad sketches!!

I think there were political reasons at very high level and bearing in mind that we were at the height if the cold war, intellegence/espionage issues at very high level. There, 2 more clues.

Observer

[puddlepirate]

Hi all

I think it is also worth remembering that US military personnel tend to work in very narrow silos. They tend to only know what they need to know in order to do their own job. Thus SP's would (most likely) only know about their area of security work. They would not necessarily know about anything else that went on and probably would not be informed of 'black' projects. They might be informed that they would need to guard something of particular importance but not what the actual object was. Likewise with Lt Col Halt. An earlier post on the forum mention his role was admin - therefore, even though he was a deputy base commander (was he the only deputy base commander?) - he might not have been informed unless he specifically needed to know. Tell one person and you no longer have a secret and as Observer has said, the US are very good at keeping secrets regarding black projects. Interestingly, it is alleged that some black projects, e.g. F117 only fly at night. They never fly during daylight hours.

I believe Warren was there. It would be too difficult for him to pretend otherwise. The US is paranoid about security (you only have to look at what's happened since 9/11) so would come down very heavily indeed on someone who spoke out contrary to orders. Those of us who have signed the Official Secrets Act are bound by it for life and to have revealed, at the height of the Cold War, anything of value to an enemy would have resulted in discplinary action and/or imprisonment.

[redsocks]

Hi All,

I'm glad that some of you guys think that Warren played a significant part in all this.I have read Left at East gate and believe that some of it may be fiction but the crux of his story is fact.I really cant imagine somebody out of the whole 81st making out they were there when they werent,it also fits for a cover up for the other guys to say they didnt see him there.One thing springs to mind about Warrens book,he mentions that another security guy who was involved in the incident took he's own life on base,warren insists that was due to the pressure he was under from the powers that be,thats pretty intense in all this and I wonder if there was an investigation into he's death by the USAF......I doubt it..I would like to know more about this like I say I think this is very significant to the whole theory of events.Just one other thing why is warren going along with the UFO story at all? infact he's story is more outrages than the others, why doesent he go the whole hog and say what really happened? he a man who's not afraid to speak he's mind after all.

Redsocks

[Observer]

Hi redsocks

I think a few of us are thinking along the same lines, and although Larry and Peter Robbins have in my opinion put too much 'glitter' on some of the things in the book, Larry is basically telling us what he saw. At the moment we can only take his and others statements at face value as there is little else to substantiate there claims.

Yes, i heard about the airman who 'topped' himself, but having been associated with both bases when i lived there and my mother was on the housing committee for those seeking digs off base, we got to hear about the number of suicides which were above average over the years they were operational.

Larry did and still may live in this country [was Liverpool] and there may be a reason for this other than he likes it in GB. I also know that Larry was a keen guitarist and was involved in the music business both in the US and UK.

Larry was seen as a bit of a rebel by the US authorities and his out spoken remarks have made the others such as Halt and Penniston distance themselves from him, not so much that they think he is a nutter or free loader, but because what he said scared the 's--t out of them. Work that one out.

Observer

[puddlepirate]

Most of the content of Warren's book is about his life pre USAF and then what happened to him after the incident. There are only a couple of pages (from what is quite a thick book!) devoted to the incident itself.

I suspect the reason Warren doesn't reveal more is because he knows about as much as we do and is seeking answers. Remember, he had not long been in the USAF, was on his first foreign draft and had only recently qualified as an SP (wasn't he awarded with some recognition of this when at Woodbridge?) so would not have been privvy to any 'secrets' or covert actions. He was ordered into the forest as part of the SP squad but [apparently] without any clear idea as to what he was supposed to do when he got there. Not much different to the usual 'Right, you lot. Come with me...'

Confusion appears to have reigned in the forest because I've not read (obviously I might have missed something) anywhere about anybody being given clear instructions to complete specific tasks or achieve specific objectives.

[Observer]

Good reasoning, and we do need to consider how military minds and training works.
In the RAF we were never given the big picture but certainly more than our USAF counterparts. It was a need to know but with a little back ground.

In the Royal Observer Corps we were given a pretty big picture as a lot of our work involved aircraft recognition [mostly soviet block] and in depth knowledge of nuclear weapons and their effects plus the different types of delivery systems. We were informed about stealth at least 10 years before it was in the public domain. We were not given details but were aware of its existance as it was yet one more delivery system that was in the UKWMO's interest to know about in the event of war.

I think Warren and others were simply told, go in that woods and find out what's going on and report back. As 19 year old lads, they would be hard pressed to put any logical explanation as to what they observed.

Heres how i would react at 19.
Its Christmas time,There are christmas trees lit up in peoples houses and some have garden lights as well i live in a country village, there are woods at the bottom of my garden,
In the evening i see lights in the woods which i have not seen before. I go into the woods to have a nose, only to find this object sitting in a clearing with flashing lights of different colours on it. My first reaction is, who's having a joke for Christmas? It must have been old Tom, its the sort of thing he would do.

Seriously, that would be my first reaction, but could Warren and the others report back saying that, i doubt it due to their military training. I don't think Penniston said "somebody's having a joke sir", even if he thought it.

Observer

[redsocks]

Hi All,

You know guys the further we get into this the more interesting stuff seems to be making sense.I find the fact that more airmen commited suicide than usual very interesting,surely that must be significant, Burrows states that 80 security guys saw the object actually calling them trained spotters,add to this the ARRS guys who must have had involvement if an object was removed from the forest floor and thats a lot of debriefing.Maybe the weaker souls couldnt handle the whole thing..what on earth was said to them?
In a nutshell what more could there be to this story, something and thats a big something was removed from the forest and covered with a UFO story from a previous ARRS prank.The airmen are debriefed and the rest is history.
Is it possible that Warren is still going along with the powers that be,he's never said its not a UFO so he's sticking with that but he has spilled the beans as it were on some other facts that must have got the establishment sqerming..and why does he move about so much thats evident in he's book and what has been said here what with him living in the uk.
Larry Warren if you are out there any chance of some more info?.

Redsocks

[Observer]

Hi all

Suicides were not just at the twin bases, they were happening at other US bases in the UK, so to keep this in proportion, it was by no means an epidemic. There were roughly 6,000 personel at the twin bases and to have one or two a year do themselves in is probably not unusual. It happens on British bases.

What i do know from talking to some of my US airman friends and their wives whenever i went on base at Bentwaters was, the wives did not like the place especially Woodbridge and some thought it a 'spooky' place and could not wait to get out.

The mystery gets deeper, but we really should now be casting asside events that the evidence does not support and concentrate on the evidence that has some substance.

We should also look out side the box and we should also consider that this event could have been of British origin? Why not.

One day some body will tell us and it will be Dollars that buys the story, sad but thats how it works some times.

Observer

[redsocks]

Hi Observer
I was just looking at the http://www.beyond-the-illusion.com site, type in "rendlesham suicide"on that site,the website gives some info on the Rendlesham incident and mentions the high suicide rate at Rendlesham (Bentwaters).Its states there that the suicide rate at Rendlesham(Bentwaters) was higher than any other air force base,we obviously need some further comformation of this but if true I would guess it more than coincidence.Check this out http://www.twinbases.org.uk click on "bud find" then click on "2000 and earlier" on the 1980's posted in line, look for the Steven A Anderson thread,wrongs dates but very strange....


Redsocks