Chemical Weapons Accident

[Observer]

Silvertop
This is a good theory to chase further, puddle was thinking in these terms and i know he had asked some one about Chems at Bentwaters, but i believe he is still waiting for a reply.

Just for argument sake, if it was a chem test/experiment, there are a load of questions thrown up as to why, who oganised it, etc etc,
The web site makes interesting reading and many of their symptoms fit.
I wonder if any of the guys who were there in the forest were given antidotes later?
Well done silvertop.

Observer

[Observer]

silvertop

I think there were two events in that forest, one was to cover up the other!

Observer

[puddlepirate]

I can quite well believe the US would use chem weapons against their own people to stop them seeing/rembering things they don't want them to see.

I think I mentioned some while back that the ARRS were involved in a covert recovery and the lights in the forest could be part of a diversion after the SP stumbled upon what the ARRS were up to. This diversion - if the need were serious enough - could quite well in include mind bending drugs in the form of a spray of some kind.

If so, then this would probably lead us back to a stealth, or parts of a stealth coming down. Very highly clasified until 1989, requiring extreme measures to keep it secret in 1980. An accident with a stealth in the US resulted in a search to recover every little piece of the aircraft - similar to the events in the forest, perhaps? The witness sketches look very similar to parts of a stealth, nobody on the ground would recognise it and it would be very important to make sure it did not appear on radar (hence the RAF Watton episode (incidentally they would probably have taken a reel of 35mm film not tape as such) - and the reason for a stealth being there at all would be a flythrough after, perhaps, being tested in theatre over the Soviet / Polish border and put up against the 3D radar at RAF Bawdsey. It was never intended to come into the twin bases but perhaps go directly back to the US or Macrahanish or Boscombe Down. Might have copped a lucky strike by Soviet AA that damaged it - hence the importance that it should not appear on 2D radar at Watton.

[Observer]

Hi puddlepirate

I've toyed with this senario before, can any one find where one of the witnesses in the forest had to be comforted as he was very upset over what he saw. Also does it mention who he was? Was this in a book or on one of the docs.

Observer

[puddlepirate]

From memory I think Warren mentions this incident in Left at East Gate, soon after arriving in the forest, after they have left the vehicles and are walking as a group - poss with Lt Englund in command of the squad.

What I find peculiar about the events in the forest, is why did they need floodlights (lightalls)? The last thing you would need when trying to identify lights at night are floodlights - but the first thing you would need if looking for other things, solid things such as debris and wreckage perhaps, would be floodlights. Obviously this initially contradicts the covert element but not if the main body of whatever it was has already been recovered and all that is left are fragments.

So taking this a little further, what might have happened is on the first night, something is seen from Bentwaters tower. SP's go into the forest but see nothing. Covert recovery continues. On the second night, lights are again seen but this time the SP stumble upon the main body of the wreckage but do not recognise it simply because nobody other than a very few have actually seen the Nighthawk or are even aware of it's existence. The ARRS withdraw and remain undiscovered. Then on the third night, when Col Halt arrives, the ARRS initiate a diversion - lights, flares, chem weapon to create hallucinations etc. then under the cover of all the malarky - guys running around the forest with red gels over torches, firing flares, letting off smoke...whatever you like .... the bulk of whatever it was is lifted out. Then an intense search for all the remaining stuff is undertaken......

The above is full of holes but is only the backbone, the skeleton of what might have happened. If it were correct - and I am not saying for one minute that it is - it is covered by layers of misinformation, conflicting dates, memory lapses, conflicting and/or changed witness statements, books padded out to make them more marketable....all sorts of stuff.

I suspect that by paying too much attention to precise dates and times attention is taken away from the actuality of what was going on. It would be interesting to know if any airmen, of any branch - SP, ARRS or whatever - were in the forest during the day. Where any vehicles in the forest in the daytme between the sighting on the 26th and the events on the 28th/29th. If it were a covert op then I suspect not - but once it became a simple clean up, then perhaps yes.

Also, whatever was taken to Ramstein in the aircraft that landed soon after the event might have been wreckage, photo reconaissance equipment etc.. recovered from the forest in the preceding days/nights.

Looking at other elements: The F117 was a bomber not a fighter, it had no air to air capability. it was small - approx 7ft 6in high (note the height)with a 26ft wingspan. It was unstable about all three axis - pitch, roll and yaw - so it could not be flown manually. It did have quadruple redundancy in the BAe Systems fly-by-wire control system but if all four circuits were taken out for some reason, it would fall out of the sky. Also, it might have been loaded with something 'orrible...(aren't some of the witnesses now reporting health problems very similar to radiation sickness or the result of exposure to radiation?).

Pure conjecture of course and no supporting evidence other than some parts do fit with what witnesses reported seeing / feeling and other events such as the secondary role of the ARRS, the Watton tapes and the speculation over stuff taken to Ramstein. Further to that there is the alleged evacuation alert at Hollesley Bay prison (because someone somewhere knew something was about to come down, having perhaps already been warned by the pilot). Then there is the alleged issue of Soviet spooks operating out of the Skoda importers at Ipswich, just down the road (this claim is possibly supported by the accurate Soviet created maps recently shown in the press and elsewhere). If the Soviets weren't lurking around the pubs and clubs in the surrounding areas then I'd bet their AIG's were a dime a dozen off the coast. The Soviets probably even put their spooks ashore along the coast. However they got there, just knowing that the Soviets were playing in the area would certainly give a big hurry up to USAF personnel searching for highly classified US kit.....

[Observer]

Hi puddlepirate

That's a heck of a theory but does fit in with some of the others,

Oh by the way the Skoda importers were in Kings Lynn Norfolk, not a million miles away. SB were giving their offices 24/7 for years as they had about 5 times the number of 'Eastern' European staff than was necessary to run a 'small' car importing firm.
I guess we should ask the forestry boys if there was any activity during daylight hours, AND i am very surprised that there was no liaision between the USAF and the forestry commision. After all, they were running all over their property and tree workers were always in the forest during day light hours. What do they know???

I wonder in all the melee, did any one get 'arrested'???

Observer

[Observer]

Sorry, forgot

Halt initially thought it may have been an aircrash so light alls are automatically taken as part of the crash kit.

Observer

[Deep Purple]

I dont think there was enough damage all round for there to have been a full crash. It could have been something like an F117a got into trouble landed but hit the landing lights, and something fell of into the woods.
There is video footage of an f117a lossing its tail plane and the pilot did not know because the fly by wire sorted it all out. Read "skunk works" and you will get a flavour for the thing.
The landing and crashing / problems with this aircraft which was coded Have Blue would have caused the most severe security flap, as this was one of the Regans adminstrations "Silver Bullets".
I must admit I have expressed this theory before that the whole thing was some sort of cover up for the F117a, but have been shot down in peices, what ever!

[Observer]

Hi deep purple

I along with puddle think it was an F-117 in trouble that for some unknown reason crashed but the main part of the plane ended up in the sea and it was just the nose/cockpit section that ended up in the forest. No wonder no body recognised it.

Changing the subject, if the landing lights were that damaged and it is only second hand information at best. They would want a bit more than one 'sparks' up a ladder with his screw driver now wouldn't they? They would need a repair crew.

Observer

[Observer]

Silvertop

This D-21 is only a guess, It was discontinued well before 1980, but there may well have been a predecessor. Just supposing for a moment that this is what was seen in the forest. It would not have been the whole unit.
The mechanics of this surveillance craft was to fly over enemy territory take a few pictures, fly back over allied territory and jettison its camera pod on a parachute. The bulk of the craft then self destructs by explosives.
If you remember Puddlepirate's posts on the build up of Soviet forces along the Polish/German border and the heightened tensions at that time, this would be an obvious thing to do. The nearest allied territory to drop its payload after over flying Eastern Europe and with no risk of it being intercepted by the enemy would be the UK. So yes, it 'could' have been expected?

This is only a theory but it would have been an extremely classified ops along with an extremely classified surveillence craft.

Was it this that rolls of film were taken from and flown to USAF HQ Germany? Was there a decoy deployed to to confuse those in the forest?
This would have been a CIA OP and knowing how they distrusted the USAF could point to this as the incident.

Yes, i know, another theory but why not, it would be a boring forum without them.

Observer

[Observer]

Just a further point to my last post

If you read silvertop's post on this thread dated the 1st Feb 08 he has high lighted a web site on chemical weapons. Agent BZ gives all the symptoms and yellow mist hanging in the air as described by some of the men in the forest. Was this agent coming from the object seen in the forest and the rest was hallucination? Read the article on BZ.

Obs

[Observer]

YES

[Observer]

Silvertop

Larry Warren was partly right in his statement in his book that the British Government didn't know about the NW stored at Bentwaters.
They did, but may not have known about chemical weapons, hence all this UFO cover story, panic and 30 year secret. It was extremely unfortunate that one ended up in the forest because it fell off an aircraft.

Obs

[John Burroughs]

Several of us had trouble with our eyes but as much as everyone wants to say it was not from outer space how can you say it was chemicals weapons I very much doubt it. What I saw on the 3rd night for sure had nothing to do with chemicals. And even the first night had to do with the lights itself how bright it was. Penniston got the closest to it and said it was a object. The only thing I don't agree with is his statement about how long we were close to it.