Devil's Advocate

[Deep Purple]

F117a or the Lighthouse?

[Observer]

DP

Many a true word spoken in jest!

Obs

[John Burroughs]

It was EM not some kind of airplane. There was all kinds of EM facility's in the area and we have not touched project woodpecker which the Russian were working on. What is the most highly classified area still today?

One thing that is notable about the Fortean "window areas" are a high degree of geomagnetic disturbance. The same EM fields causing the disturbances in electronic hardware may also be disrupting the 'wetware' of the brain. Nonetheless, some EM phenomena generated in these zones - in particular the so-called "Earthlights" - are very physical and real. The very odd behavior of some Will-O-Wisps/Spook Lights/Ball Lightning has suggested to Vincent Gaddis and others that these may be forms of intelligence, "electro-animals," with purposive behavior. One simplistic explanation of the Fortean occurences in these areas is that contact with these EM entities produces hallucinations, and causes the person to see whatever his belief system is likely to accept - a flying saucer, a hairy ape, a ghost, an angel, a talking tree, or whatever. An alternative explanation, advanced by Paul Devereux, is that these energy-balls are subject to psychokinetic molding, into whatever we want to see.

[Shearwater]

Couple of things: for many years I attended the Mildenhall airshows. At the very last show there was a B-2, both on static and flying display (as well as an F-117) It occurred to me at the time that the mere fact these were at the show indicated that they were 'old hat' and that something much stealthier was probably already in operation. After all, the existence of the CIA's A-12 'Oxcart' wasn't even suspected until it was superceded by the SR-71. The F-117 is virtually redundant already, being replaced by the totally un-UFO-like F-22 and F-35

It's probably a given that some UFO reports are actually based upon sightings of still unrevealed ultra-stealthy drones: particularly a good fraction of the 'black triangle' type.

None of this seems to have a bearing on the RFI, though: neither the B-2A nor F-117 ( 'Aurora' & 'Have Blue') fit the descriptions. More importantly, the F-117 didn't have its first flight until June 18th, 1981, while for the B-2 it was even later: July 17th, 1989.

Any UFO account before these dates must, of course, refer to aircraft not operated by the US of A

[Observer]

shearwater

Very interesting topic close to my heart. An F-117a was in the UK early 80's for test flights with the newly developed 3-D Doppler radar which was at RAF Bawdsey just down the road from Woody. It was based for a short while at RAF Machrehanish in Scotland and only flew at night. Rumour has it that it was 'pranged' whilst doing flight trials, but I emphasise, its only a rumour. Did the C-5 land at Woody to pick the wreckage up????

I think the first flight trials were earlier than 1980 and the other rumour was they wanted to fly it near to the soviet block areas to see if got spotted on the radar. This aircraft then was so highly secret then that drastic action would be taken if certain people saw it that shouldn't. Does this explain the treatment they got at de brief?

Jim Pennistons first note book sketch is not that dissimilar to the nose/cockpit section of an F-117, don't forget it was seen in the dark. There were comparisons posted on the forum some years ago, perhaps admin can dig them out.
I agree that some other highly classified air craft or possibly a UAV could be responsible for the RFI.

Obs

[Shearwater]

Nope: sorry, but you're wrong!
The F-117 didn't get airborne until six months after the RFI: fact! And even then, it was at Groom Lake, not Suffolk (Or Scotland)
I was a military pilot myself 'back in the day' and I can assure you that whatever JP saw, it wasn't a prototype Nighthawk!

It also wasn't an Apollo boilerplate! The capsule in question was BP-1206: throughout the 1980s it was the subject of a loan agreement with the Smithsonian. The capsule continued to be used sporadically as a training vehicle (The Apollo Program having concluded prematurely in 1972)
However, following the RFI it was moved from its site in front of the 67th hanger to a secluded spot where it could not be observed (or misconstrued!) by UFO 'fans'! In June 1991 the boilerplate spacecraft was shipped to the 71st ARRS at Patrick Air Force Base in Florida.

I have read elsewhere that 67th ARRS at Woodbridge had two mock-up Shuttle Orbiters delivered in 1978. Anyone know what happened to them?

A correspondent on 'collectSPACE' who was based at Woodbridge during the key period is absolutely adamant that all helicopters and A-10s in Suffolk were grounded due to persistent fog. Is this fact widely known? If it is true, then there were no ARRS flights involving Apollo capsules or Orbiter mock-ups over the Christmas 1980 period.

[Observer]

OK, you might be right concerning the F-117 not being in the UK, but I have been told different by a pal of mine who was a crew chief in the ARRS and had to deploy his HH-53 rescue Sqd to Machrehanish for exercises and he confirmed to me that it was the F-117 that was there. He even said the Black Watch were guarding the air field boundery and no one was allowed near the aircraft. He said the hanger was guarded by Navy Seals. I think I would prefer to believe him over any one else. He only ever said it was in the 80's.
You must also forgive people for coming up with ideas no matter how ludicrous they may sound to you because if it wasn't for some of them, we would be totally clutching at straws. Many a good lead has come from a stupid idea!

I think we dispensed with the Apollo capsule idea a couple of years ago. Don't know any thing about the Shuttle training rigs, but I will E mail my pal and ask him. As you are probably aware, RAF Woodbridge was one of several emergency landing strips round the world for the space shuttle. It could also be seen in orbit on a clear night over Gt Yarmouth/Lowestoft.
I know they had a cockpit escape module from an F-111 for training purposes.

Yes, it has been confirmed by several people that every thing was grounded over the Christmas period and the Woodbridge Controll tower was stood down. Only the Bentwaters tower was manned with a skeleton shift crew due to NATO requirements.

Obs

[Shearwater]

The first visit to Europe by F117s was in May/June 1993 to Gilze Rijen inthe Netherlands....
Rumours about Machrihanish are always of the ' my friend knew a bloke who has been told' variety. Truth is, the F-117 is not only not secret these days, it's not even operational! The date of its first flight is now a matter of public record.

The other day I was discussing orbs with an astronomer friend: he dismissed them as '..just ball lightning'. My reply to him sort of fits the bill here, too: it is illogical to attempt to explain one mystery / unexplained phenomenon by reference to another!

[Observer]

So Mr clever shearwater, if its not a F-117 then what would YOU say it was, We are all ears as you are unbdoubtedly a person of vast knowledge and huge intellegence. I know a bloke that knows a bloke doesn't wash, I got my information first hand from the man who did a tour of duty there and he told me to my face last year when he visited me. He is as honest as the day is long. Remember, you weren't there or knew any body that was there. Just because you can quote the history on the F-117, doesn't mean to say they released everything into the public domain!
I suggest you start looking at other more fruitfull theories.
Obs

[Shearwater]

I really have no idea why you have become so agressive! My post was a) delivered in good nature and b) factually accurate.
Whether you or your friend would prefer it otherwise, it is a matter of fact that the F-117 first flew six months after the RFI. Deal with it and move on.
I also don't think you have the right to make assumptions about me, based on two or three posts.
Firstly: how do you know I have no first hand knowledge? Or acquaintances who were personally involved in the RFI? As it happens, I do!

Secondly, why do you use 'vast knowledge and intelligence' as an insult? There are already lots of undistributed, anecdotal theories floating about: there's certainly a place for some informed ideas on the 'pro' side of the UFO debate! As a matter of fact, I do have a degree in Astronomy and another in cellular Biology: I also did a short service commission in the Navy as a pilot. What in that deserves your ridicule?

I have been an active researcher and data collector for nearly fifty years, as a matter of fact: I do have plenty of ideas and personal experiences, but prefer to discuss these with fellow-investigators in a civilised manner, rather than making wild, unsubstantiated claims in anonymous public forums.

Have a good evening and try not to get so het up: it's not good for the blood pressure!

[Observer]

Listen here 'Credence [Manx] 'Shearwater' Revival,
You totally bit the bait. You have also given your approximate age away which tells me a lot

Any way its obvious you want the last word on this so you have it.

[John Burroughs]

Observer
Where have I heard that line before took the bait and last word! Shearwater I'm sorry but the first F-117 was operational in 1980 I saw the aircraft myself but it was not at Bentwaters. If you flew you know what tail numbers stand for. Second Observer how would a F-117 get into the woods and then get back out? The airfield was not shut down because of weather but but because of the holiday's. Shearwater who do you know who was involved with the incident? Your statement about ball lighting is much closer than it being a F-117 thats for sure! One other question does anybody know what they used to test EM fields in the early stages? Observer you always seem to have friends in high places can you do this! Find and post what type of radars where in the area. What was at the british sites the our bases and Martelsham Heath and the BT site.. Also look at straight line radar and tell me if that was in use in the area!! Shearwater what would a airplane with 80 on the tail stand for?

[Observer]

John

I don't think for oner minute that it was the F-117 in the forest, I simply made the likeness of Jims sketches and the nose section of the F-117. Highly unlikely it crashed in the forest, there would have been devistation and fire. Just a crazy thought by me.

I still have the same opinion as you that this incident was based round some sort of EM/Microwave experiment or could it have even been an attack. to see how effective it was. The Russians were way ahead of us then in this technology.

Obs

[Shearwater]

John! I've seen the tail number prefix '80' on F-15s, F-16s and AWACS, but I have no idea what the number signifies!
I wasn't in the woods with you and the other guys in 1980, so have no opinion about what you saw: I did enjoy meeting you at Woodbridge last December: you seemed a really straight guy to me!
My own opinions about the UFO phenomenon in general are based upon my personal experiences seeing and photographing a few: these were obviously mechanical devices.
But it would be naive to think that ALL are explainable in this way: I believe we are all guilty of 'lumping' a number of unrelated phenomena....

[John Burroughs]

When the aircraft was in a operational wing! Did you see the part in one of the articles I posted that talked about what happens to the human mind when they encounter somthing they don't understand? How they react and relate to what they saw? Have you ever really looked at the way Jim talks about what happened and trys to explain it. How he struggles with what he says happened to him and how it happened. What he sticks up for and what he does not!! Larry Warren I know your stoping by now and then why do you think and its only been Halt who was saying that was not the area you were in is doing what he is doing?

[Shearwater]

LOL!
I'm one of the 'good guys' who thinks that you and JIm have come in for a lot of undeserved and harsh criticism!
It was great meeting you both: hope to do so again some day! (Even though I'm bl**dy ancient, as 'Observer' kindly pointed out! LOL!)

[John Burroughs]

Thanks! Then my question to you is what do you feel happened to us based on everything you have seen and heard? And Observer he is right about posting information that goes past just theories..

[Shearwater]

John: as I said before, I am uncomfortable about expressing an opinion about what you saw/experienced, because I wasn't there.....
The various accounts of the main witnesses are, to be frank, somewhat at variance, but the RFI took place 30 years ago: I don't find a problem in people having different perceptions of what was, obviously, a very profound experience.

I can tell you that of the ten or so UFOs I have personally seen well enough to be certain that they were not aircraft / clouds / planets blah blah, five were definitely metallic and mechanical. My own belief is that these were spacecraft of some advanced design.

The thing about the UFO phenomenon and the paranormal in general is that it beautifully demonstrates the Heisenberg uncertainty principle: examining an event alters the anticipated outcomes of the investigation. Here's a thought: what if the 'fictional' scenario in Nick Pope's book is based on the truth?
If Bentwaters was a joint USAF / Alien base at the time of the RFI and you and JIm and Col Halt were perfectly aware of the fact.... Would you tell us? LOL!
This is the same situation we find when talking to Astronauts. If the surviving Apollo crews encountered EBEs / UFOs on the Moon or during their missions, do you reckon they'd tell us? I doubt it! The best I've managed is a wink and a few words of unattributable support when a few margaritas or tanqueray martinis have been enjoyed!

What have always frustrated me are the sub-groups with agendas I can't subscribe to and which I personally feel undermine all our credibilities:
* New-agers who are waiting for some profound message from 'The Sky People'
* Wannabes who use UFO groups to achieve prominence / approbation / self-importance / a publishing deal
* Neo-Nazis who see the phenomenon as evidence of the imminent coming of the Fourth Reich (Based in Antarctica!)
* People who use quasi-scientific clap-trap to give value-added to their pet theories

The UFO phenomenon is, IMHO, real and deserves to be examined carefully and with genuine rigour. There are some good people out there doing good research which, I believe, will ultimately produce results.

[puddlepirate]

IMHO it's worth looking at the detail of LW's description of events and following on from that, what happened to him after he phoned his mother over a monitored PSTN connection. These were the days of the Cold War so it is essential to consider events from the military not civilian perspective. There is a huge difference between the two. Those of us not around during the years 1939 to 1945 will never fully comprehend what life was like during WW2. Similarly those not around during the Cold War will never really understand how it was back then. You had to be there.

[Observer]

Christmas 1980 was the pinnacle of the cold war tension between NATO and the Soviet Union. Things were getting very hot on the Polish border and spy flights and spy SAT's showed the Soviets had moved heavy armour and troops up to the border.
NATO and the USA in particular were very worried that things night kick off.
Something happened in Rendlesham Forest over Christmas 1980 that was related to the cold war.

Obs