A challenge to the skeptics

[Daniel]

The time travelling/trans dimensional idea does interest me. Of course it is probably the only other thing outside of Black Projects that I feel is possible, as long as our technology continues to advance. The reason why I see this is because the event felt like it was placed in a controlled environment, where the forest could be used to control the flow of actions. Did you see any figures in your regression and did they appear to you in a way that you respected them e.g. Doctor, Fireman, Policeman, Scientist?

[John Burroughs]

Frank
I'm sorry thats not the way it went down! Your right about using todays Technology but what about future Technology? History just did a piece on that! Scientist feel it could be possible to time travel in the future and there working on it for space travel! A question was asked what or who was the engery form we were seeing the answer was it was us!

[stephan]

Guys, you ever saw the movie ''Official Denial'' ? Hearing you talk I wonder if it was based on John's and Jim's hypnotic regression statements as aliens (Greys) come from the future and state that they are us.

A man who claims to have been abducted by aliens is also abducted by a top secret government agency, the Majestic Group, who want him to attempt to communicate with the only surviving alien from a UFO shot down by the Air Force. Telepathically, the alien tells him it must be returned to its ship, where it will reveal a secret vital to the future of the planet.

source

[AgentAppleseed]

Id be willing to bet that given enough time, we will certainly look physically different to how we are now. There`s even the possibility that we will create new designer organisms for specific tasks. We will alter our own genetic codes, and we will absorb technology into our physical being. We may completely merge with technology to the point where we don`t exist in a physical sense anymore.
Consider the ethical debates involved, before technologies like cloning etc are implemented into our society . Every controversial new branch of science that comes along, brings with it; many questions, many responsibilities, and many implications . Where science goes, many ethical and moral debates will follow. There`s always a long period of time between the introduction of such technologies, and their eventual implementation. There`s always a period of time between these two points where the science needs to be understood, and where we as a race, need to come to terms with the implications of the changes this technology will bring, both to us and the world we live in. We need a period of "grace", if you will, so that we can absorb these new technologies at a pace necessary, in order to prevent us from accidentally wiping ourselves out, to put it bluntly.
Is anyone familiar with the idea of Technological singularity and what it means? If not I suggest taking a look at Terrence McKenna`s work on that subject. Now, we haven`t reached McKenna`s point of singularity yet, but we are speeding towards it right now as we speak, and its very close indeed. Now try and imagine the changes, 50,000 years of singularity will bring. That`s a mindbender right there!! Now, once you understand the concept of singularity, and have an idea where a race of beings who for arguments sake, are 50,000 years beyond this point of singularity might be both in terms of their natural evolution and their technologies, consider the fact that they have had 50,000 years to digest each new technology that has come their way during that enormous length of time. Now consider where we are, at our point in time, in terms of technology, evolution, etc and our attitudes both morally and ethically towards these technologies and our evolution, taking into account, the spiritual aspects of our society which play their own parts in all of this.
Now take that race from the future, and bring them back to present day, and introduce them to us, in our modern era...... Well... considering all of the above, what`s going to be our attitude towards "Frankenstein`s monster from the future", to put it really bluntly!
Now, Id like to make something clear here, this particular aspect of this subject is monumentally important, and I just cant underestimate neither the importance of it, nor the importance of the fact that the couple of brief paragraphs above are nothing but a whiff, of what is necessary in order to fully explain the implications of what I am talking about here. An individual could write books about that aspect alone!!
One facet of the UFO subject that is continually overlooked, in my opinion, and which is itself a constantly recurring theme in the subject, is memory! The concept of Memory is constantly being shoved in our faces as regards this subject. Why?! Is memory an important and completely overlooked theme that is more deserving of our attention, when it comes to scrutinizing the reasons for people being taken and "studied"(for want of a clearer definition of what they are actually doing). Genetics and DNA are topics thrown around a lot, and the idea of hybrids, but personally before Id go near any of that, I would be more inclined at looking at the theme of genetic memory. If people are coming from the future, then there might be a connection between memory and time, people from the future and time travel.

[John Burroughs]

Interesting it seems like you have spent a lot of time looking at this! I know for a fact that were working on time travel! One of the things they talked about is using speed it was interesting that we would be traveling faster than light and when we got there our watches would be behind what the real time was.Under my Hypnosis it came out they would be back for us at a certain time and that they picked us for a reason!

[Frank]

A question was asked what or who was the engery form we were seeing the answer was it was us!

Under my Hypnosis it came out they would be back for us at a certain time and that they picked us for a reason!

This really is fascinating stuff, John! Can you recall more from your dialogue with the entities? Are your memories accurate enough to produce the whole dialogue as it enrolled, because that would be a very important piece of information! Maybe if we get the whole picture we can find out what they could have meant with something like "you are us".
Did everything come out under your hypnosis by the way, or did you also consciously remember parts of it prior to your regression?

About the 'killing your father before you are born' problem, this is not a problem of technology - no matter how sophisticated possible time travel technology would be, you still have to answer the question 'what would happen to me if I killed my father before I was born' (and many similar situations). But maybe the entities you saw solved it somehow.

What you saw on History probably has something to do with good-old Einstein. He discovered that the speed of time is different for different observers (depending on their relative speed and even depending on gravity). We use this knowledge daily in our sat-nav systems (without a correction for the clocks running diffent on board of the satellites compared to the surface of the Earth, we would never reach the accuracy that our sat-nav systems have today). But : That does not mean that a specific observer can travel backwards in his own specific past. That is an entirely different situation, resulting in the time travel paradoxes mentioned (did you ever see the movie "Back to the future" by the way - it's a fantastic movie and a great illustration of these paradoxes). I know that there is a lot of speculation on time travel in science but to my knowledge they have to fall back to very exotic theories like the "multiverse" (an almost infinite number of universes all existing in parallel) to work their way out of the time travel paradoxes.

[John Burroughs]

Frank
There is a lot there from mine and Jim Hypnosis thats for sure! There are things that I remember before I go under but there are several things I don't! There is a video on U-tube that has about 7 min worth of it! One of the things that comes out is as I approach Halt on the 3rd night and we start talking he tells me that they communicated with his party telepathically and I believe its been awhile but they told him they wanted me to go foreword! Again this is what came out under Hypnosis not what I remember! The history Channel piece was new it talked about creating worm holes to make this happen several scientist were talking about time travel!

[AgentAppleseed]

for a reason!
Well thats the trick isnt it, forcasting what the reason might be? I cant help thinking that to do that, youve gotta be able to take a guess at what these people are capable of, first! And then, consider what their technology might allow them to accomplish, and thats quite hard to imagine, so to those who think they know, go take a look at the theory of technological singularity and then get back to me.

Beginners guide to technological singularity
Let me try and explain what singularity means, in very simple terms. There is a theory in quantum physics, that says that information is the substance that underlies our universe, in a way, more fundamental than gravity, the two nuclear forces, or electromagnetism. What this theory tries to suggest, is that our universe, is a secondary by-product of a kind of primal information, that makes up the universe and everything in it. Lets say for a moment that we human beings have just evolved from the apes, and we are starting to make progress by coming up with tools that make our lives easier, by allowing us to hunt and build, and therefor; survive easier! Now, we like the hand axes we use, and we realise that we are making progress. So...Lets say that along the way, we want to find out just how much progress we are making. To do this, we must first understand the theory of "period information doubling". What we do is, we pick a time period, lets say 50,000 B.C to 1A.D, around the time of the creation of hand axes, and we count how many tools we came up with, during that time period. We call this period of time one "period of human information".
After that, we wait and see exactly how long it takes, to come up with twice as many tools as we had, in the first period of time, and what we will find is that, it took less than the time it took for the first 50,000 year period, lets say around half that time. We have doubled our information, in half the amount of time. It all stil took a few thousand years of course. The next period of human information, might take a few hundred years to double all of the information before it. By 1960 to 1970 we doubled all the information we had up until that 1960. By 2003, I believe we were doubling every eighteen months, although I may be off slightly for this period. Now think about that,- every few months, we are doubleing the amount of information we have ever gathered throughout the history of mankind before us. Im sure by now, you can tell where this is going...This "period of human information" is getting shorter and shorter, until it is happening by the second. Sometime between this year, and 2015(some would say 2020, or 2045), the gap disappears. A lot of people are nervous about what this means, this is the singularity. A lot of very informed people say we will see the birth of artificial intelligence when that gap disappears. Basically it means that human knowledge goes infinite after this point. From that moment on, everything changes for this planet and everyone on it. This description is from a video I came across on the internet and I chose it, to try and explain in simple terms what the singularity actually is. This would be a good jumping off point for anyone interested in learning more about this subject. Ray Kurtzweil is a good guy to listen too, on this subject, but I recommend Terrence McKenna`s Timewave Zero. There are a few "futurists" out there like those guys, and they deal with theories about how the singularity deals with computer technology after the event itself. Different people are forcasting different kinds of events and outcomes. The thing is, nobody knows exactly what to expect from this occurrence except that its going to be a major milestone in human learning and evolution on a level unseen, or unheard of, so far throughout human history.
If you do decide to learn more about this, you`ll have more of a grip, on what to expect from a race of beings, who are not just 50,000 years ahead of us, but instead are:- 50,000 years of singularity ahead of us, there`s a big difference, as your about to find out!!

[AgentAppleseed]

Kurzweil and McKenna are out there on the cutting edge. I pay a lot of attention to what people out there, on the cutting edge of science have to say. They are the best people to look too, in order to get a grip on something like this. You really need to be paying attention to people, who think out of the box. Those kinds of people are the ones that are forging the path ahead, they are out there, but you need to go looking for them some times, and you will find that because of what they do, and the knowledge they gather, on a daily basis, they turn out to be quite open-minded people. They know how little we know, and they are inspired by what they are finding out.
The UFO subject is fascinating to me for a number of reasons, one being the human element to the thing, but when you want to know the meat of the matter so to speak, you need to look elsewhere. There are some good people working in the ufological field, and there are a lot of intelligent people who are just interested in the subject. Of course then there`s the bad side, but those people just get too much press for some reason.

[Frank]

One of the things that comes out is as I approach Halt on the 3rd night and we start talking he tells me that they communicated with his party telepathically and I believe its been awhile but they told him they wanted me to go foreword! Again this is what came out under Hypnosis not what I remember!

I beginning to realize how deep the rabbit hole goes in this case, John ..

Like you said, it came out under hypnosis. So this may or may not have been a true memory. Maybe you had knowledge of the rumours that were spread around and somehow incorporated this in your memories of the event. Or maybe it was true, but in that case Halt must be a very cool guy to simply put this whole event on the shelf and move on with his career.

Talking about rumors, maybe you missed this post: http://www.rendlesham-incident.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=785#p6998
It is a detailed summary from Bruni's book about 'Steve Roberts', the guy who started spreading rumors a few days after the incident. The story is a bit more complicated that just some guy spreading rumors in the pubs. It also seems he changed his story, and there are many ways of explaining why he did. I wonder what you think about it.

(Another thing: I don't have much knowledge of hypnosis, so I googled a bit and found this interesting link: http://mentalhealth.about.com/cs/dissociative/a/dabaterec.htm)

[AgentAppleseed]

I wanted to post a video on here, but had problems so Ill just post the link instead-:http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8701042459684666916#
The quality of the video is not good, but whats being said, is more important. I believe that what McKenna has to say is educational to say the least but is also relevent to the R.F.I. Please watch it.

McKennas time wave zero is a model of time, and the wave represents time in a linear fashion. Time seems to feature cycles which involve high points and low points on McKennas waveform, which are reflected through events both in the universe around us, and also by us, throughout our own history. Afterall, we are not seperate from the universe around us, we are part of its fabric, and all the laws that effect the universe effect us, also. McKenna goes to great pains to point out that no one knows whats going to happend at this point of singularity, but one of his guesses, is that what we will discover time travel in 2012, this idea would seem to explain the reason why his wave ceases at that date, the idea being that the wave can no longer give a representation of unfolding linear events, because at that time, events become non linear!

Again, no one knows what is actually going to happen, and all the top people struggle to fathon the nature of it, let alone whats going to happen or the form it will take!

[Ignis Fatuus]

About the 'killing your father before you are born' problem, this is not a problem of technology - no matter how sophisticated possible time travel technology would be, you still have to answer the question 'what would happen to me if I killed my father before I was born' (and many similar situations). But maybe the entities you saw solved it somehow.

Simple solution really...don't kill anybody.

Odd don't you think that whilst having the technology to pinpoint a destination both in time and space, mind control the locals once there, and then shoot into space so as to engage the Improbability Drive...the Travellers couldn't find a bio-medical solution to their needs...in their own time.

Reading Jims take on it, he said they can only go back in time, they can't go forward. Does that mean forward from their own time or forward from any point in time? If they can't go forward how do they get..umm..back to the future..to apply the band-aids?

[John Burroughs]

Simple there making the repair in the past to effect what happens to there bodies IE Band aids in the future!

[Ignis Fatuus]

Thus reactivating Frank's Paradox.

[AgentAppleseed]

Simple solution really...don't kill anybody.

Odd don't you think that whilst having the technology to pinpoint a destination both in time and space, mind control the locals once there, and then shoot into space so as to engage the Improbability Drive...the Travellers couldn't find a bio-medical solution to their needs...in their own time.

Reading Jims take on it, he said they can only go back in time, they can't go forward. Does that mean forward from their own time or forward from any point in time? If they can't go forward how do they get..umm..back to the future..to apply the band-aids?

You seem to have missed the point of this yet again, Ignis
This is the real world, not Back To The Future or the Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy! You cant apply Hollywood logic onto something like this. It only serves to confuse the issue. In our daily lives, we have a simplified understanding of time in the form of past, present and future. Forward in time and backward in time, are not representative of the way time actually works, or time travel for that matter. When there is non linearity, what direction do we go then?!
If these people have a problem, then they have a problem. Their situation is unknown to us! If we don`t know what the problem is, how can we know if they can fix it, no matter how advanced they are?!
When we don`t understand a concept, we have a nasty habit of projecting onto that concept, our own misunderstandings and misgivings about how we think the concept works, rather than putting aside our prejudices, and standing back and trying to understand how it actually works.

[John Burroughs]

Well Columbus could not sail around the earth because it was flat!!

[John Burroughs]

Wouldn't you know it Hawking today just came out and said Time travel is possible! But in 1992 he said it was not!!

[Ignis Fatuus]

You seem to have missed the point of this yet again, Ignis

Once again appleseeds you give a lengthy Fanboi sermon without adding a single new concept.
Funny how you call Dave Clarke a master of cut and paste when that seems to be your MO.
Should I insert (sarc) for you at the appropriate juncture to make your reading a little easier.
Here's the paradox appleseeds, I'll type slowly so you can understand, the Time Travellers come back 40-50k years because apparently that avoids changing the timeline. So what do they do when they get here? They partake in activities specifically designed to change the timeline. What happens back in the future where they came from? Are all their woes suddenly cured like magic?

Magellan sailed around the World. Columbus sailed across an Ocean.

[Ignis Fatuus]

Or what was left of Magellan's crew.
It's not the possibility of time travel that is hard to accept, it's the improbability of the bad science that's being used to explain it.
Seems so amazing that people will believe almost any theory except the one that sticks out like dogs balls.

I suspect the only thing to have come from the future was the white pages in Jims notebook and all the subsequent embellishments made under the influence of Hypnotism. In fact I'm becoming more and more sceptical about the whole deal.
Nothing in this saga intermeshes to form a coherent narrative.
How does the triangle formation of indentations at the so called landing site fit with Jims depiction of a craft with helicopter like skids?

[John Burroughs]

Bad Science Ignis Fatuus fair enough but here are the facts we went out and had a encounter with something we cannot explain that was able to lift off the ground and take off at a high rate of speed! We got close enough to it for Jim to say it was mechanical in nature from the begining. There were also blue lights or whitish blue flying around in the sky beaming down lights to the ground! As far as Hypnosis goes thats what came out from 2 different people at two different times you don't have to like it but it came out. Something happened to us something that we didn't ask to happen and can't explain to this day. We have to deal with it on a daily basis not knowing what we have encountered all you have to do is find different ways to criticizes and pick at what were trying to say daily.