Linda Moulton Howe's reports

[Observer]

David

Although I'm no expert in those twinkly things in the sky, I have been thinking [haven't we all] about how this UFO story started out as as only lights seen to where we are now. This is how I see it.

An unlikely series of multiple events [that may have been of no importance] over a 3 night period which may or may not be related and different people over different times have contributed different parts of the story. Some are down right lying and others are simply mistaken, but every one has associated these multiple occurrences as all part of the same incident with out trying to prove if they are connected or not.

Obs

[IanR]

It's very similar to the way you claim that the Orfordness light was many times brighter in 1980 than it was in 2000. As we both know, you're using an acknowledged error in the Guiness Book of Records as your source for this specious claim.

No I'm not. I am using this document from Trinity House
http://www.ianridpath.com/ufo/orford1980.jpg
which gives a figure of 5 million candelas in 1980. The current value is 635,000 cd.

I worked through the figures again on this Forum last month with a graph kindly provided by Frank
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1007&start=80#p9528
and we got the same answer.

But, as I said in a posting further down that page, atmospheric conditions also play a major part in how bright the lamp looks on any given night.

Ian

http://www.ianridpath.com/ufo/rendlesham2.htm

[David Bryant]

Sorry Ian: you're wrong and I suspect you know you are! I regularly visited Rendlesham / Tunstall Forests on birdwatching trips in the early eighties and I am absolutely certain that the light was no brighter then than it was before its decommissioning.
I quote from a well-respected history of Orford Ness:

1971 - Guinness Book of Records

In the 1971 edition of the Guinness Book of Records it was incorrectly reported that Orfordness Lighthouse was the brightest Lighthouse in the United Kingdom. The extract from that edition, on page 120, reads:

“The lighthouse in the United Kingdom with the most powerful light is the shorelight Orfordness, Suffolk. It has an intensity of 7,500,000 candelas. The Irish Light with the greatest intensity is Aranmore on Rinrawros Point, County Donegal.”

This was retracted in the subsequent edition and I believe the reason for the incorrect entry was because one too many zero’s were added to the intensity during submission.

The current lamp and optic configuration of the Lighthouse produces 635,000 candelas.

[IanR]

Sorry Ian: you're wrong and I suspect you know you are!

No, I know nothing of the sort, otherwise it would not have been on my website.

Since you queried the matter, I checked with Gerry Douglas-Sherwood, the Archivist of the Association of Lighthouse Keepers, who has replied as follows:

“I have to say I put my faith in official Trinity House statistics. We have an official "Trinity House Schedule of Lighthouse & Fog Signal Characters & Equipment" updated in March 1981 listing Orforness as having a 2nd order catadioptric three-panel lens displaying an light of 5M candelas from a 100v 3KW lamp.”

In other words, the figure he quotes of 5M cd confirms the Trinity House document I have on my website. (As a matter of interest, the scan of that document was provided by James Easton, who started out as a lighthouse denier and ended up a believer.)

Gerry D-S goes on to say that only St. Catherine's (5.25Mcd) and Strumble Head (6.00Mcd) were at that time stronger than Orford. So the Orfordness light was, indeed, much brighter back in 1980 than now – one of the brightest lighthouses in the country, if not the world. Gerry had no explanation of where the Guinness figure of 7.5 M came from.

Your move.

[David Bryant]

Ian: your data about the light just doesn't stack up: even a brief search online will disprove the '5 million candle power' figure:

There are around the Scottish coast, including, as lighthouse people must do, the Isle of Man, six lights of a million candlepower or more. They are: St Abb's Head, Strathy Point, Swilkie Point and the Calf of Man (each one million); Buchan Ness and Mull of Galloway (each just over two million). Lights of comparable brightness in England and Wales are: The Lizard, Tynemouth North Pier, Bardsey and Strumble Head (each one million), and in Ireland: Baily and Rathlin East (one million), and Black Head, Tory Island and Aranmore (each about one and a half million). Buchan Ness and the Mull of Galloway are thus the brightest lights in the British Isles.

The fact you've put something on your website doesn't make it right: a good example is that horrendously misleading photo of the lighthouse. You know perfectly well it looks nothing like that from Capel Green: powerful binoculars or a spotting scope are needed to make it out from the forest edge.
I have no idea why you continue to 'police' this forum: it's for people with open minds and no agenda. If you are happy that the RFI was just a bunch of hysterical airmen with over-active imaginations, then fine: you're right and we're all credulous dupes. Why not just leave us to our delusions!?

[David Bryant]

Just to underline the last point: for those of you who've never visited RF: here's what the Orfordness Light really looks like from the Forest edge:
http://www.chilling-tales.com/towards%2 ... 20Ness.jpg
And here's how 'someone' pretends it looks!
http://www.chilling-tales.com/OrfordNess%20IR.jpg

[Ignis Fatuus]

Don't you mean: here's what a photograph of the Orfordness Light during daylight really looks like from the Forest edge?

..it's for people with open minds and no agenda.

Exactly. The Doc needs a prescription for his own medicine.

[Ignis Fatuus]

...And an oldie but a goodie...
If X = UFO, where was the second - identical - flashing light of Orfordness LH?

[Shearwater]

That's the sort of reply you expect in a kids' playground, 'Fatuus': you have no real argument to offer!
Ridpath continues to promote the idea that the lighthouse is closer, bigger and BRIGHTER than it really is: during the daytime (and in the links posted by David Bryant) you can plainly see the actual situation. At night (before the light was turned off for good!) it was even more obvious that the lighthouse is a very distant speck of light that couldn't possibly have been seen from inside the Forest.

[David Bryant]

Well said Shearwater!

Have you actually been to Capel Green, 'Fatuus' (Amusing that your surname means 'stupid' or 'misleading'!) The lighthouse is five miles away and, in real life, looks exactly as it does in the linked picture above: I repeat, you can't even see it without good optics.
You, and other sceptical posters on here, continually ignore the fact that many of the witnesses say they did see the lighthouse during the RFI, but recognised it easily for what it was: a local landmark with which they were completely familiar.
Why don't you think hard and come up with a sensible argument based on the facts rather than the misinformation you promote?
The facts believers find so persuasive are very straightforward:

* credible multiple witnesses over a prolonged period
* physical evidence
* previous and subsequent related incidents

In fact I wouldn't say I have an agenda: although I have investigated the paranormal for nearly 60 years, I don't attempt to proselytize:I just publish my own and other people's accounts on my website. There are many famous events about which I have serious reservations: this isn't one of them!

[John Burroughs]

Thanks David

I have not laughed so hard in a long time. Fatuus stupid or misleading. I have not given up on the case I really like the fact you have steped up and posted what you have after spending many hours out there. Its interesting also you where there in Dec Ian was not. Unless that was him hiding in the woods on the 25th watching us. Anyway you were nice enough to meet up with us and give us a chance. Well Ian what can I say I know still hideing behind the computer. You to Fatuus laughing again stupid or misleading.. David if you get a chance listen to Linda report on Coast and its on earth Files also. Would like to know what you think. Thanks again!!

[Ignis Fatuus]

[AdrianF]

The lighthouse is five miles away and, in real life, looks exactly as it does in the linked picture above: I repeat, you can't even see it without good optics.

You, and other sceptical posters on here, continually ignore the fact that many of the witnesses say they did see the lighthouse during the RFI, but recognised it easily for what it was: a local landmark with which they were completely familiar.

This is one of the biggest contradictions with the case. If the lighthouse was so insignificant and can't be seen from the forest, then how can it also be a well known landmark, which everybody was familiar with?

[Shearwater]

Oh for heaven's sake! Stop trying to score clever points!
Look: the Eiffel Tower is a well-known and familiar landmark, but you can't see it all over Paris!
The same is true of St Pauls, Buckingham Palace and the freaking White Cliffs of Dover!
I've been to the Forest many times in the past. I KNEW the lighthouse was there: I even looked for it. Can you see it from the edge of the woods? Not without binoculars. It's too far away and too small an object. You COULD see its 'beam' as a tiny, reddish light at night, but. I repeat ONLY from the very edge of the woods.

Talk to messrs Burrows & Penniston: they knew the Orfordness Lighthouse existed: for all I know they had a cup of coffee on the Quay or a pint in the Jolly Sailor. It is a matter of record that several observers of the RFI events reported seeing the lighthouse during the night: but this was from the area east of Green Farm, NOT from the East Gate.

[AdrianF]

Sorry Dave, this point works both ways. Read the witness statements.

[Shearwater]

Not only have I read all the witness statements, I've spoken to / e-mailed many of them this year.
JB and JP both confirm they were completely familiar with the lighthouse, and that you couldn't see it from the East Gate at Woodbridge. It might have been visible from the lookout tower at Bentwaters, but that's not the issue here.

[IanR]

Not only have I read all the witness statements, I've spoken to / e-mailed many of them this year.
JB and JP both confirm they were completely familiar with the lighthouse, and that you couldn't see it from the East Gate at Woodbridge.

But that was exactly Adrian's point. You can't see the lighthouse directly from East Gate and they didn't realize you could see it from the forest which is why they didn't recognize it. See points 4 and 9 on this page
http://www.ianridpath.com/ufo/rendlesham2b.htm
JB has always been consistent on this point, to his credit, and if he and JP are now telling you differently then they are the ones who are being creative.

Ian

[Observer]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't Halt say that he saw a light blinking about every 5 seconds which is about the time it takes for the light house light to go 360 degrees. If it wasn't the light house that Halt saw, then what did he see that blinked every 5 seconds?
Obs

[Frank]

Exactly, Ian, I completely agree with you. They could NOT see the lighthouse from East Gate and when they first saw it in the forest it took them a while before they identified it. No discussion about this, the witness statements are clear about it.

But what DID they see from East Gate..?
John’s witness statement: “while on patrol down at East Gate, myself and my partner saw lights coming from the woods due east of the gate. The lights were red and blue, the red one above the blue one, and they were flashing on and off.”
(http://rendlesham-incident.co.uk/evidence/usaf-witness-statements/john-burroughs-witness-statement/)

There is no way this could have been the lighthouse.

Next, take a good look at the drawings made by Jim and John. The object in these drawings is consistent with a red light above a blue light. Again, something that couldn’t have been the lighthouse light. Jim even draws a zig-zagging path through the trees confirming the object moved back through the forest.
(http://rendlesham-incident.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Burroughs-3.jpg)
(http://rendlesham-incident.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Penniston-3.jpg)

After this object disappeared and “Once we reached the farmer’s house we could see a beacon going around, so we went toward it. We followed it for about 2 miles before we could see it was coming from a lighthouse.” (John’s witness statement again).

This lighthouse light might have blended in with the lights of the other object while the men were in the forest, but the data clearly tells a story of an unidentified object PLUS a lighthouse light.

If you are not able to see that you are either biased beyond help or deliberately spinning this case.
In either of these cases further discussion is completely useless. The lighthouse theory is draining the energy from this forum and that’s why I decided to stop right here and never discuss the lighthouse again.

[Observer]

It may give us new momentum and interest if we investigated the 'object' they saw in the woods. There is some fascinating theories already posted on this forum, but it still remains unidentified.
Obs