Penniston on UFO UpDates [Re: BBC article]

[stephan]

Mark’s book is about the way in which the US Air Force has fostered a belief in UFOs for its own purposes. The irony is that that belief is now coming back to bite them in cases like this one.

Ian,

although it's Mark's book you seem to support this view. Hence I'd like you to ask: what would these ''own purposes'' be ? Did they want to make the Russians believe in UFOs and aliens ? Did they want to make the people believe in it ? If the former couldn't they have chosen a more simple cover story, for example weather balloons, weather phenomena etc ? Why should the Russians believe that if they did not make their own observations in the sky. If the latter - which would be more likely as the average person has no (scientific) means to verify such claims - why would they still keep those stories up until decades later ? I mean, it's okay if you say: if the people misinterpret spy planes as UFOs they won't ask questions that would endanger national security (for example questions like: I've seen a strange plane flying at high speed and high altitude. What's the purpose of it ?). But meanwhile people KNOW that goverments and the military are running black projects. No need to keep the cover-up up. Furthermore, what would the purpose be behind incidents in which nuclear weapons were allegedly affected by UFOs, what would be the purpose behind the Belgium mass sightings of a triangular shaped UFO - sightings which were even confirmed by the Belgian AF ? Why would astronauts (such as Gordon Cooper) claim to have seen extraterrestrial space-craft ?

Please don't answer by saying 'buy the book' - I'd really like to know about your take on that.

[AgentAppleseed]

Finally, can I make an observation that may have escaped some of those here and on Facebook. As far as I’m aware, the Radio 4 Today piece was about UFO belief, using the Rendlesham case as an example, pegged on the release of Mark Pilkington’s new book Mirage Men.
http://miragemen.wordpress.com/

(I say “as far as I’m aware” because it wasn’t my piece and I haven’t listened to it.) But perhaps it was Evan’s blog that incensed more people than the original broadcast.

Not at all Mr Ridpath, it has escaped no ones observation at all whos piece it was, and what part you played in it. Let me make it clear to you, that your treatment of this entire issue has just come to an extremely ugly head, in light of the B.B.Cs recent article. It seems your observation is the incorrect one, or maybe this is just your way of wriggleing around the issue and shirking your responsibility, for your part, of the extensive amount of damage you have caused to this case, in the eyes of the public, for the last thirty odd! You insist on adding insult to injury with proclaimations of everyone else being mistaken in their observations while you so bullheadedly refuse to acknowledge that maybe you have been mistaken. You really are, quite a shameless indidvidual. You really do enjoy a good wind up dont you?!! With your one line answers to invitations to come onto podcasts etc. You love to light the fire of division and derision and then sit back and watch it all go up in flames while you look on. Thats not normal behaviour. Your behaviour is highly questionable. I put it to you Mr Ridpath, that you have abandoned all good sense, and skepticism in favour of outright denial!!
Remember people, this is the very same individual who claimed Col Halt to be "basking in publicity"

Mark’s book is about the way in which the US Air Force has fostered a belief in UFOs for its own purposes. The irony is that that belief is now coming back to bite them in cases like this one.
Really?So theyve managed to immortalize the case by turning it into a UFO mystery because they wanted to keep it secret and have us all forget about it, and here we are 30 years later still talking, still haveing aneurysms, on drugs, and up all night because we cant sleep over something they just wanted us to forget? Thats real common sense at work! Bravo Mr Ridpath, with people like you as the go to guys on good sense, I can see a great future for the human race!

[John Burroughs]

AgentAppleseed
I have to start out by saying that was very well written! I should have you put everything together for me! Ian I'm glad your willing to meet us that night in the forrest! Its none of your concern on why were comming over or where were staying! Just if your willing to meet us in the forrest that night! We have no desire to do a interview with you or Mr Clarke! We would just like to meet you in the forrest with the BBC and any other news organization and have you show us and the world what you have been claiming for the past 25 years or so! As far as the notebook goes ask Jim As far as this summer goes I could not afford the air fare and lodgeing to come over and I made that clear at the time! You have taken what happened to us and ran with it so all were asking of you is to show us and everybody else how its possible! I have no desire betwwen now and then to exchange any kind of information that will lead to any kind of debate what so ever! I'm glad your willing to meet with us and will let that night speak for itself!

Admin
Thank you so very much for creating this site out of your own pocket allowing me to be on it! As far as collecting question that would be great! Jim and I would be happy to sit down with you while were there and do are best to answer as many question as we can so you can post them on your site! In closing I beleive Jim will be posting somthing soon on are up comming meeting in December with Mr Ripath in the Forrest! I'm glad he agreed to do it and I truly want this event to be a civil encounter in the forrest! Thanks John Burroughs

[stephan]

@ AgentAppleseed,

at least the whole issue keeps the case alive - more than ever IMO because once there's a conflict everyone feels the need to participate in it - human nature I suppose

anyway. I have my own opinion and I'm not influenced easily by just one other opinion and I guess most people think likewise. To be honest, Ian's view may in fact rather have the opposite effect than you might think. For example the lighthouse theory. I mean, it's so obvious that it wasn't the lighthouse - sorry Ian - and it cannot have been Kevin Conde with his police car. There are simply too many statements made by the witnesses that don't fit. So one is tempted to think that if it wasn't that it must have been something else, i.e. one begins to consider the ET hypothesis. IMO Ian ignores these statements as there is no hard proof, people can always make things up.

What worried me more (as I've said and explained elsewhere) is the content of the Halt tape which - at least in part - could indeed seduce people to consider such terrestrial explanations as Ian's. Then there somehow seems to be a huge gap between C. Halt, J. Penniston, J. Burroughs on the one side and Larry Warren on the other. I don't mean their statements but rather the way they stay away from each other. I've never seen them all together at a UFO press conference, on CNN or heard them debating the case - together - on the radio. At least it's nice to see them all on facebook. Therefore I - as someone who was not involved in the events - have three options instead of two: all lie, all tell the truth but mysteriously are not talking with each other, one side lies. I've chosen the 2nd possibility so far but I have to say it was really not easy. Still I think that Larry might have added (by intention or not) some things in his book while the other side seems to omit a few details. Why don't they simply lay aside their ''differences'' and combine their efforts ?

Finally there may be of course another possibility which I've excluded though because of my own experiences which seem to indicate both ET presence and ET contact has happened and is happening. That possibility would be that ALL, i.e. both critics/sceptics and witnesses, have been staging the whole thing over the last 30 years. The big question then of course would be why.

[AgentAppleseed]

Ian Ridpath continues to add insult to injury with his comments. The mind truly boggles at the sheer gaul of this man, to claim that; people on facebook have somehow mistakenly aimed their frustrations and anger at him, instead of the B.B.C. It seems to completely elude him that; the anger that has been directed toward him, has been a long time coming, and has arrived at his doorstep, as a direct result of his involvement with the B.B.Cs recent actions. Does this mean he is distancing himself from the actions of Evan Davis and the B.B.C? Of course, they are the ones to blame for all this, yet Mr Ridpath has so far failed to condemn their actions.

[Daniel]

...The witnesses weren't even questioned when the BBC began pushing Kevin Conde's 'explanation'.

I only watched the program back in 2003, but I do recall the presenter calling up either John, Jim or Charles to confront them with the allegation made by Kevin. Do you remember who he called? This really made me angry back then and to me feels more insultive than the BBC's current peice of crap.

[IanR]

although it's Mark's book you seem to support this view. Please don't answer by saying 'buy the book'. I'd really like to know about your take on that.

I spoke to Mark on our visit to Rendlesham but I haven't read the book yet. If you want to know more about what he has to say without buying it, see this interview here
http://dailygrail.com/Interviews/2010/8/Mirage-Men

Ian

[stephan]

thanks for the link, Ian, will check it soon. But I had hoped you'd also share your own view especially in regard to (some of) my questions.

[IanR]

thanks for the link, Ian, will check it soon. But I had hoped you'd also share your own view especially in regard to (some of) my questions.

As I said, I haven't read the book so I don't have any particular views. I do understand that he has something of interest to say about the origin of the MJ-12 documents so that in itself could be worth reading.

Ian

[stephan]

oh btw Ian. Check out facebook, J. B.'s post. Hey that's great, Larry Warren will also be there ... hope you guys will all profit and learn from each other, wish I could be there, too ...

[IanR]

We have no desire to do a interview with you or Mr Clarke! We would just like to meet you in the forrest with the BBC and any other news organization and have you show us and the world what you have been claiming for the past 25 years or so!

So is this proposed meeting going to be on the record or not? I am happy to meet with you privately and explain in person what I think and why, which I have already explained to you several times by email. If we are going to meet in the presence of news media then it will inevitably be on the record. Dave (if he is there*) and I will want to write up our own accounts.

If someone can arrange transport I can take you to the edge of the forest to see the lighthouse flashing in line with the farmhouse like I did with the Today people. I cannot unfortunately recreate the 3 am fireball which in my opinion started off the whole event (and which you tell me was actually seen by Bud Steffens and not you). As you say, all this is all 25 years old and well known to you, if not to many UFO believers.

If we are to retrace your steps into the forest accurately, it would be useful to establish whether these diagrams, supposedly drawn by Jim but which he apparently now denies are his, are genuine or not. They tell us your route, including where you left your vehicle and began walking towards the unidentified lights:
http://www.ianridpath.com/ufo/Penniston2.PNG
http://www.ianridpath.com/ufo/Penniston3.PNG
Is that Jim’s handwriting?

Its none of your concern on why were comming over or where were staying!

Yes it is. I need to know who is arranging all this. There are matters such as dates, times, location, transport and accommodation to resolve. If there are third parties involved I will need to deal directly with them.

I truly want this event to be a civil encounter

I hope so, but the tone of recent postings by you and Jim gives a somewhat different impression.

I have no desire betwwen now and then to exchange any kind of information that will lead to any kind of debate what so ever!

In that case I don’t see how it is possible to make any arrangements.

John says: "I hope that when we go out there [to the forest], and [Ian] shows up, there are ten thousand people out there ..."

Did you really say that? I don’t think the Forestry Commission would be happy with a mass rally. I have agreed to meet you for a serious discussion, and right now that’s as far as it goes. You must decide whether you want a serious discussion or a circus.

Please get back to me when you have some clear answers to the above points.

Ian

* Dave will make a separate post.

[Frank]

This is not a very positive post, sorry for that. But is does reflect my feelings about this whole affair and about the direction this case is going.

I wonder what all of you expect from this forest trip.

We already know the different points of view, and we already know the arguments to defend them. We already know there is no fit between the witness statements and the fireball/lighthouse/stars theory. We already know that the only way to make this fit is to assume that witnesses are embellishing, lying, hallucinating, or having false memories from hypnotic regression sessions. We already know that Ian thinks this was the case and that the witnesses strongly deny it. We already know that Ian will use the inconsistencies between the different witness statements to prove his point. We already know that the witnesses have no clear explanation for these inconsistencies, and will point to the physical evidence. We already know that Ian will cast doubt on the radiation readings and the landing marks. If Jim brings his notebook, Ian will try to show that Jim’s notes were not made on the actual night but much later, after his hypnotic regression.

We already know the final outcome of this discussion: Neither party will have convinced the other. And in the meantime this case has not moved forward one inch towards a consistent and convincing explanation.
Why are you wasting your time on that?

[stephan]

we already know that on the first night Peter Robbins and Larry Warren were back in the UK to visit the forest they witnessed an event which was very similar to what occured on the night Col. Halt and his team had their experience back in Dec. 1980. Who knows, perhaps ET will be there, too and turn all the sceptics into believers and much more I think it's a VERY GOOD idea - with or without ET !!

perhaps this helps, Frank

[stephan]

@ puddlepirate,

I don't think Frank is right here. Coming together means to learn from and about each other. Differences can be laid aside this way which may not be possible on a forum or website. Sometimes it's possible to understand someone better if you look him into the eyes and talk to him. I've learned that on a couple of occasions. If we just communicate via the Internet misunderstandings are preprogrammed such as your assumption that those on the forum were not the same as on TV. Radio is not TV but if you listen to the recent shows and compare the voices of the witnesses you'll see that they are the same as on TV. That said notice them mentioning the facebook website and also follow their comments on that website. You'll see that they directly refer to this forum, for example there was a huge uproar on facebook when member Storm published his latest version of the Halt tape. Guess why he deleted it. Also I've asked John via facebook if the forum is okay to discuss the topic and he recommended it. So there's absolutely no indication that they are not the same. Perhaps some of 'em have multiple accounts though in case they want to say something which they won't want to be associated with

edit: I see you've deleted your last post, puddlepirate. Suppose you changed your view which is nice. Hope Frank will do so, too

[Admin]

Stephan, the latest issue of 'Fortean Times' includes an article from Mark Pilkington about the 1952 Washington UFO scare. Pick up a copy if you can, it's a good magazine.

As far as collecting question that would be great! Jim and I would be happy to sit down with you while were there and do are best to answer as many question as we can so you can post them on your site! In closing I beleive Jim will be posting somthing soon on are up comming meeting in December with Mr Ripath in the Forrest! I'm glad he agreed to do it and I truly want this event to be a civil encounter in the forrest!

Great. I do think that the meeting needs to planned carefully however. If too many people turn up, problems could arise or the discussion/meeting could be taken off its course.

[Frank]

edit: I see you've deleted your last post, puddlepirate. Suppose you changed your view which is nice. Hope Frank will do so, too

Well, I sure hope I'm proven wrong. If not, then I'll at least know wat that second craft was: They must be the great-great-grandchildren of John and Ian traveling back to 1980 and meeting in the forest once more to finally know what really happened that night

[John Burroughs]

Admin and Frank

As far as the question go I met you could meet up with Jim and I somewhere if its possible while were there for a couple of hours or more if needed with the question people have from the forum! You could ask the question's with tape running and then go back and post are answers on the forum! We will be also willing to talk about the time line! If your available Admin during that time frame were over there I think that would work out the best! As far as anyone who wants to show up and ask question were going to try and hold some kind of conference down there also so that would be the time they could ask any question they would have. Frank I have said for along time I would be willing to go out in the woods and show anybody who would like to see where we were when the incident happened and have us talk about ! As far as IAN goes he is welcome to show up while were there were not doing anything special for him! As you can see in his post he wants to have control we have not asked for a list of who he is bringing like he has tried to push on us! We will be there on the 28th time TBA but after dark at the east gate! Were not worried about anybody who would like to show up turning it into a circus we will just follow the route we took to the area we had the encounter! We will be happy to talk about what happened and give Mr Ridpath the opportunity to show the whole world what he has been claiming for over 25 years! Last time I checked he was not a member of the press so he like anybody else is free to write what ever they want afterwards with out having to say if its on the record or not! What we won't be doing is giving him or any of his wannabes a interview! There will be no reason for that we will discuss with anybody out there what happened to us and then he can show the world how we were fooled by the light house planets and stars! I hope he will bring along Vince Thurkettle because after all it was him who first talked about how it could have been the light house we saw and IAN then took that theory and ran with it! IAN are you getting cold feet already making excuses can't recreate the fireball whats next the lighthouse was brighter back then were mistaken about our location or the Forrest has changed! We will be there on the 28th the question is will IAN or will he come up with some kind of excuse not to show!!

[IanR]

I wonder what all of you expect from this forest trip.
We already know the final outcome of this discussion: Neither party will have convinced the other. And in the meantime this case has not moved forward one inch towards a consistent and convincing explanation.
Why are you wasting your time on that?

Frank, That is my feeling too. Your summary is astute.

However, John Burroughs has always answered my questions honestly and, until recently, with civility. I know that this case has had a major effect on him and that he still yearns for an answer. If he really is coming over this December, and his postings here and on Facebook are not simply a kite-flying exercise, I feel it is my duty to meet him face to face and explain what brought me, and the other careful investigators who share my views, to our conclusions. I hope everyone on the Forum will allow us to make arrangements for our meeting.

Ian

[John Burroughs]

IAN
Here the thing you have been rideing this incidents coattails for the past 20 years or more even having the case on your web site looking for any chance you could to get on TV ! Everytime someone makes a statement IE Halt or Penniston you jump on it just like the post you just put on here about what Penniston just had to say! You took what Vince Thurkettle said and ran with it! Its kinda of funny I'm not sure if this is true or not but Ive been told the guy who did the story with you has come out on twitter and said the BBC had nothing to do with this! I been told what he had to say on twitter is going to be posted on the Justice site on FaceBook it sure sounds like the BBC does not want anything to do with what you two had to say! Or maybe you both mislead them on what you were going to do along with Dave Clarke and there not to happy about it! Who knows but it sure looks like the BBC wants to distance themselves from you guys! I love your statement about how if its simply a Kite flying excersise and its your duty to help wow is that drama driven! I bet you hope we don't show up that night but we will be there I promise! We will be at the East gate after dark on the 28th will come up with a time when it gets closer! You can bring what ever you want and who ever you want were not worried about who shows up with you or if you bring a Camera or not! Its funny you should have no trouble according to you showing everybody how Jim and I were fooled by the Light House Planets and stars after all you and your other carefuf invesigators still have the same Light House Planets and Stars to show us and its the same time of year! Plus from what I have been told the Forrest is about the same height as it was back then! So by all means duty calls strike up the band and show the world what you have been claiming for the past 20 years. We will be there with a Kite if you would like and star light star bright will you? I just don't understand how anybody on the forum will stop us from meeting! And while your at it why don't you explain to the forum like you did to me how when COL Halt and his team had the object over them beaming down a light at there feet which was on the tape how it was just a star!

[jpenniston]

Well , I see a lot of back peddling by Evan and the BBC too. Also I see you are doing that too Ian! Some advice, if you treat people fair, you have nothing to worry about.

Your last post is really all telling. I find you have a value system which is not in line with ours, I don’t expect you to understand or emulate integrity, honesty, or duty to country, like the rest of us from the 81st Security Police. These are things which make up our character and a value system which is unattainable for you at this point in your life. We all know that, having character is doing the right thing when no one is watching. So I do understand why you don’t believe people and take them for face value until proven otherwise. I don’t believe that you are capable to take John for his word on anything. John does not lie, he is a person of integrity on a scale that you could never comprehend. I am basing that on observation (reading and listening to you for almost twenty-five years) of your prior actions over the years.

In fact we are coming over to the UK in December. We are men of honor, and when we tell people we are going to do something, we do it. The only reason John wants to have you tag along, is for the hope, that you might realize that our landing site and Halts are two miles apart. (approx) You could even see the light (no pun intended) from anything on the coast on the first night. When viewing the first night site, you are unable from that location to see the coast, light houses and such, are impossible to see because there is no line of sight and the trees are just too tall, and the distance is too far also. And anyway what you have always suggested is just plain silly.

The only reason that you would say that, is you don’t believe any testimony of witnesses involved. I also see that you are not indiscriminate on who you attack. The latest is John, but, John is more than capable of handling the irritation of you. Unfortunately I see that you took a jab at Larry Warren too. If you could understand the magnitude of stress that was involved with this incident and what the personal toll on these men have taken, you would try and be a decent person who was thoughtful and courteous, leaving Larry alone on those things would be the right thing to do, there are plenty of witness other than him to attack.

Let me address investigations, to say you’re a qualified investigator Ian, is like: A rent-a-cop saying he is a U.S. Marshall. This is not personal, I am just stating the facts. I actually am embarrassed for you.

Any qualified investigator knows from their schooling, the variables with eyewitnesses, all observe different things. Based on advantage points or being in the same room too. On a crime scene, one witness says he had a red coat, the other might say a blue one. One might say it was even a she and was wearing a sweater. But, the basic facts which create the crime scene don’t deviate and are the makings of the event they had observed.

Oh! By the way Ian, what school did you attend investigators school at? John and I receive our schooling at the Security Police Academy, in Texas. My field of expertise is Criminal Justice, and it does cover how to get facts during an investigation. Not to count the years of professional execution of those technics. Or maybe your using your skills as an astronomer to investigate this case. What observatory do you work for, and how does star gazing relate to this?

Anyway, lets get back to Rendlesham.

So, I think it will be interesting, for all of us taking this return to Rendlesham. We are also excited that we can have a few hundred friends with us to observe the event. I was against the idea of having you tagging along at first, however, I thought it over, and I don’t mind educating you on what really took place that night in December 1980. We will be glad to discuss any unclassified information at the event. Just look at this as your first class in Investigations 101.